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	<title>Comments on: Hope that does not disappoint</title>
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	<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/</link>
	<description>A journey into, through, and out of Charismania</description>
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		<title>By: pam</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-532</link>
		<dc:creator>pam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 15:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-532</guid>
		<description>My family has just left a church like this. It was a painful thing and is still. I read your stories and it sounds just like I wrote it. the same money message and the same twisting of scripture and the same new revalations. Do these guys all study from the same book? It sure isn&#039;t the bible.thanks for sharing your story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My family has just left a church like this. It was a painful thing and is still. I read your stories and it sounds just like I wrote it. the same money message and the same twisting of scripture and the same new revalations. Do these guys all study from the same book? It sure isn&#8217;t the bible.thanks for sharing your story.</p>
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		<title>By: charismania</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-516</link>
		<dc:creator>charismania</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 02:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-516</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Karen!

Sometimes I wonder what things would have been like if we&#039;d found a blog like this one when we first began having questions about our church.  I remember how much it helped us when we discovered Kevin Reeves&#039; &quot;The Other Side of the River.&quot;  His situation wasn&#039;t exactly the same as ours, but there were enough parallels to make us sit up and realize we weren&#039;t alone.  His key point - &quot;Our personal spiritual experiences alone cannot be used to validate truth&quot; - was probably the one thing that cut through the fog and made us think.  So maybe this site will do the same for someone else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Karen!</p>
<p>Sometimes I wonder what things would have been like if we&#8217;d found a blog like this one when we first began having questions about our church.  I remember how much it helped us when we discovered Kevin Reeves&#8217; &#8220;The Other Side of the River.&#8221;  His situation wasn&#8217;t exactly the same as ours, but there were enough parallels to make us sit up and realize we weren&#8217;t alone.  His key point &#8211; &#8220;Our personal spiritual experiences alone cannot be used to validate truth&#8221; &#8211; was probably the one thing that cut through the fog and made us think.  So maybe this site will do the same for someone else.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-515</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-515</guid>
		<description>It really is a good blog.  Even if you don&#039;t ever add another post, it&#039;s still a good resource for those in the process of evaluating whether or not God is trying to pull them out of a wacky church situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It really is a good blog.  Even if you don&#8217;t ever add another post, it&#8217;s still a good resource for those in the process of evaluating whether or not God is trying to pull them out of a wacky church situation.</p>
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		<title>By: charismania</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-514</link>
		<dc:creator>charismania</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-514</guid>
		<description>Hi, Karen...

No, it wasn&#039;t just you.  We took the site private for awhile, because we felt like we&#039;d sort of run out of things to say.  But now we&#039;re back.  We may not post as much as we used to, but we figure that people still might find some of the older pieces helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Karen&#8230;</p>
<p>No, it wasn&#8217;t just you.  We took the site private for awhile, because we felt like we&#8217;d sort of run out of things to say.  But now we&#8217;re back.  We may not post as much as we used to, but we figure that people still might find some of the older pieces helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-513</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-513</guid>
		<description>Wahoo!  You guys are back!  What happened?  Was it just me?  I couldn&#039;t get to your site.  Anyway, I love your site and I&#039;m glad you all haven&#039;t disappeared from the blogosphere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wahoo!  You guys are back!  What happened?  Was it just me?  I couldn&#8217;t get to your site.  Anyway, I love your site and I&#8217;m glad you all haven&#8217;t disappeared from the blogosphere.</p>
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		<title>By: Melissa</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-479</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-479</guid>
		<description>Very insightful message.  It is difficult, though, without God&#039;s word and the help of His Spirit, to discern what to believe and what to throw away.  I have learned that the false teachers/prophets in the WF movement are masters as twisting scripture.  It has taken a few years for the Lord to get rid of the teachings I have learned from them.

The problem is, I went from one extreme to another.  I just left a church that I attended for two years.  This church was very big on exposition of scripture through whole books of the bible.  I knew I wouldn&#039;t be there long, but I did not know why at first.  I learned that scripture interprets scripture, and I have learned so much more on my own by getting into the word and asking the Lord to give me understanding.  But they lacked faith, unless you conformed to what they wanted for you.  You had to be &quot;obedient&quot; to the leadership even if it contrasted with what you believed God wanted you to do (and you were not going against scripture).  Their lack of faith and love drove me and another sister away.  

So, like you, I am now learning that there is balance.  We must continue to have faith in the Lord and His word--not believing in our own words or in our own faith.  We also cannot &quot;demand&quot; anything from the Lord, but we are to marvel at His graciousness and His faithfulness when He answers the prayers that are according to His will.  We have to know Him and be conformed into the image of His Son (painful process, such as it is) and then our wills will be His will and we can be confident that He hears us and that we have the petitions that we ask of Him.

Isn&#039;t this journey with the Lord wonderful?  I am in awe that He loved us enough to snatch us from that which was false so that we can know Him in spirit and in truth.  We have to continue to pray for those who are our true brethren that are still caught in that mess.  We must be ready with our own testimonies of God&#039;s deliverance so that they, too, may have hope.

Blessings!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very insightful message.  It is difficult, though, without God&#8217;s word and the help of His Spirit, to discern what to believe and what to throw away.  I have learned that the false teachers/prophets in the WF movement are masters as twisting scripture.  It has taken a few years for the Lord to get rid of the teachings I have learned from them.</p>
<p>The problem is, I went from one extreme to another.  I just left a church that I attended for two years.  This church was very big on exposition of scripture through whole books of the bible.  I knew I wouldn&#8217;t be there long, but I did not know why at first.  I learned that scripture interprets scripture, and I have learned so much more on my own by getting into the word and asking the Lord to give me understanding.  But they lacked faith, unless you conformed to what they wanted for you.  You had to be &#8220;obedient&#8221; to the leadership even if it contrasted with what you believed God wanted you to do (and you were not going against scripture).  Their lack of faith and love drove me and another sister away.  </p>
<p>So, like you, I am now learning that there is balance.  We must continue to have faith in the Lord and His word&#8211;not believing in our own words or in our own faith.  We also cannot &#8220;demand&#8221; anything from the Lord, but we are to marvel at His graciousness and His faithfulness when He answers the prayers that are according to His will.  We have to know Him and be conformed into the image of His Son (painful process, such as it is) and then our wills will be His will and we can be confident that He hears us and that we have the petitions that we ask of Him.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t this journey with the Lord wonderful?  I am in awe that He loved us enough to snatch us from that which was false so that we can know Him in spirit and in truth.  We have to continue to pray for those who are our true brethren that are still caught in that mess.  We must be ready with our own testimonies of God&#8217;s deliverance so that they, too, may have hope.</p>
<p>Blessings!</p>
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		<title>By: d</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-462</link>
		<dc:creator>d</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 23:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-462</guid>
		<description>I hope we don&#039;t have to through out the &#039;baby with the bathwater&#039;! 
Just because the ENEMY got in and twisted and distorted and deceived and seduced the leadership into manipulating and abusing the sheep doesn&#039;t mean that the message of faith itself, at its most basic form, is null &amp; void, or should be discarded!
I think we can hold onto some of the basic truths of the Word of Faith message. That the Bible is powerful and full of life giving words that can change us, fix us and help us NOW, if we believe them.  That because of the finished work of redemption by Jesus Christ, we live under a new and better covenant that is full of GRACE and mercy and love and forgiveness.  That God is all the way for us and in no way against us.  That we are His very own children and He is our very own Father. 
I believe there&#039;s still plenty of Good News in the message of faith that you can find WITHOUT twisting scripture or taking it out of context. 

So, to use an analogy my Baptist-pastor dad used in sermons many times...be like the old cow at the trough, eat around and leave the brambles and briers and just take hold of the good stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope we don&#8217;t have to through out the &#8216;baby with the bathwater&#8217;!<br />
Just because the ENEMY got in and twisted and distorted and deceived and seduced the leadership into manipulating and abusing the sheep doesn&#8217;t mean that the message of faith itself, at its most basic form, is null &amp; void, or should be discarded!<br />
I think we can hold onto some of the basic truths of the Word of Faith message. That the Bible is powerful and full of life giving words that can change us, fix us and help us NOW, if we believe them.  That because of the finished work of redemption by Jesus Christ, we live under a new and better covenant that is full of GRACE and mercy and love and forgiveness.  That God is all the way for us and in no way against us.  That we are His very own children and He is our very own Father.<br />
I believe there&#8217;s still plenty of Good News in the message of faith that you can find WITHOUT twisting scripture or taking it out of context. </p>
<p>So, to use an analogy my Baptist-pastor dad used in sermons many times&#8230;be like the old cow at the trough, eat around and leave the brambles and briers and just take hold of the good stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy Kunsman</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-461</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy Kunsman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-461</guid>
		<description>Just about the time that I started to really suffer at the hands of the leadership for sticking by other people in our abusive church, I started to develop allergies and my husband&#039;s migraine condition from childhood returned.  I&#039;m still, to this day, unable to take anything but tylenol (which does little) and strong narcotics for pain.  Having several chronic conditions, this makes life a bit of a drag.  There have been days when I wanted to just give up and take a Motrin, even knowing that I would be in the emergency room later that day, just to get some relief.

So it was recommended to me as well as my husband that we pursue hypnotherapy to aid in the non-pharmacological management of pain.  Well, this is dangerous stuff for anyone, let alone a Christian....  After many years of thinking about it, I figured that I had nothing left to lose.

So I trained as a hypnotherapist (rather than go for hypnosis), and I learned a great deal.  It really helped me take back a part of myself that I&#039;d lost in many ways.  But the real benefit to me was discovering how very much hypnotherapy is just like Pentecostalism.

What was wonderful about the initial stages of this training (though it was rough because I was the only verbally dissenting Christian in the class and I refused to do regression for religious reasons) was the pleasant and familiar message of thinking only good things.  Before I delved into the deeper understanding of hypnosis and observed the lives of those who practice, I was able to appreciate the truly beneficial aspects of &quot;naming and claiming.&quot;  I&#039;m so glad that I was able to receive this message, and I gained a great deal of validation as a result of the hypnotherapy training.

And I was certified in the use of hypnosis for pain management during childbirth, so that was a wonderful thing as well. 

It was another step in my process of what I call self-integration -- or picking up all the pieces of what was left of my shattered self and letting God put me back together.  A huge part of that was feeling safe about calling things that are not as though they were again, but with the balance of doing so in accordance to the Word and not out of conformity or under pressure from authority.  It was a wonderful gift to receive those things back without any fear, for I no longer served any guru or step-by-step plan.

(And I learned yet more techniques of manipulation along the way.)

I&#039;m so glad that hope has reintroduced itself to you again.  Isn&#039;t it wonderful?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just about the time that I started to really suffer at the hands of the leadership for sticking by other people in our abusive church, I started to develop allergies and my husband&#8217;s migraine condition from childhood returned.  I&#8217;m still, to this day, unable to take anything but tylenol (which does little) and strong narcotics for pain.  Having several chronic conditions, this makes life a bit of a drag.  There have been days when I wanted to just give up and take a Motrin, even knowing that I would be in the emergency room later that day, just to get some relief.</p>
<p>So it was recommended to me as well as my husband that we pursue hypnotherapy to aid in the non-pharmacological management of pain.  Well, this is dangerous stuff for anyone, let alone a Christian&#8230;.  After many years of thinking about it, I figured that I had nothing left to lose.</p>
<p>So I trained as a hypnotherapist (rather than go for hypnosis), and I learned a great deal.  It really helped me take back a part of myself that I&#8217;d lost in many ways.  But the real benefit to me was discovering how very much hypnotherapy is just like Pentecostalism.</p>
<p>What was wonderful about the initial stages of this training (though it was rough because I was the only verbally dissenting Christian in the class and I refused to do regression for religious reasons) was the pleasant and familiar message of thinking only good things.  Before I delved into the deeper understanding of hypnosis and observed the lives of those who practice, I was able to appreciate the truly beneficial aspects of &#8220;naming and claiming.&#8221;  I&#8217;m so glad that I was able to receive this message, and I gained a great deal of validation as a result of the hypnotherapy training.</p>
<p>And I was certified in the use of hypnosis for pain management during childbirth, so that was a wonderful thing as well. </p>
<p>It was another step in my process of what I call self-integration &#8212; or picking up all the pieces of what was left of my shattered self and letting God put me back together.  A huge part of that was feeling safe about calling things that are not as though they were again, but with the balance of doing so in accordance to the Word and not out of conformity or under pressure from authority.  It was a wonderful gift to receive those things back without any fear, for I no longer served any guru or step-by-step plan.</p>
<p>(And I learned yet more techniques of manipulation along the way.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m so glad that hope has reintroduced itself to you again.  Isn&#8217;t it wonderful?</p>
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		<title>By: Ruby</title>
		<link>http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-455</link>
		<dc:creator>Ruby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 07:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://charismania.wordpress.com/2007/12/06/hope-that-does-not-disappoint/#comment-455</guid>
		<description>One of the most terrible abuses by authoritarian &#039;pastors&#039; is that of doubt. When a pastor declares you do not hear from the Lord (as well as he does), that you do not know the Lord (as well as he does), that you do not understand the Lord (as well as he does), and that you are not serving the Lord (as well as he is), it becomes obvious you have a different Lord.

And if one is right, the other must be wrong.  

The spiritual abuse that says &quot;you do not know your Saviour&quot;, &quot;you do not know your Shepherd&#039;s voice&quot;, &quot;you can&#039;t trust God&quot;, &quot;you can only come to the Father through His &quot;anointed one/apostle/leader/pastor&quot; etc...&quot; - these things are wicked, vile abuses.

It is because of this abuse that I no longer believe in &quot;church&quot; (small c).  I believe in, participate in, and a member of Jesus&#039; Church (big c), and still know the fellowship of the Body, but church as an institution is a hutful, abusive and horrible place - we have strayed so far from the early church model.  Until we let God alone govern the churches, people will continue to be abused; smouldering wicks will be snuffed, and bruised reeds broken.

May Jesus be glorified in the Church - and in us!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the most terrible abuses by authoritarian &#8216;pastors&#8217; is that of doubt. When a pastor declares you do not hear from the Lord (as well as he does), that you do not know the Lord (as well as he does), that you do not understand the Lord (as well as he does), and that you are not serving the Lord (as well as he is), it becomes obvious you have a different Lord.</p>
<p>And if one is right, the other must be wrong.  </p>
<p>The spiritual abuse that says &#8220;you do not know your Saviour&#8221;, &#8220;you do not know your Shepherd&#8217;s voice&#8221;, &#8220;you can&#8217;t trust God&#8221;, &#8220;you can only come to the Father through His &#8220;anointed one/apostle/leader/pastor&#8221; etc&#8230;&#8221; &#8211; these things are wicked, vile abuses.</p>
<p>It is because of this abuse that I no longer believe in &#8220;church&#8221; (small c).  I believe in, participate in, and a member of Jesus&#8217; Church (big c), and still know the fellowship of the Body, but church as an institution is a hutful, abusive and horrible place &#8211; we have strayed so far from the early church model.  Until we let God alone govern the churches, people will continue to be abused; smouldering wicks will be snuffed, and bruised reeds broken.</p>
<p>May Jesus be glorified in the Church &#8211; and in us!</p>
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