Awhile back, I put up a post on this site expressing my confusion over some miracles that had been said to have happened at our former church through the use of “anointed” prayer cloths. Although they should have been quite easy to verify – especially one story, where two sets of x-rays were taken within less than 24 hours, x-rays that supposedly proved the healing – no documentation was ever presented to the congregation. The more I thought about this incident in recent months, the more I began to question what I had previously accepted wholeheartedly, just because it had been stated from the pulpit. Given the fact that the “prayer cloth miracle story” was told repeatedly, to cheering crowds eager for their own miracle, it seemed to me highly unlikely that our former pastor would have passed up an opportunity to REALLY promote his church by documenting the incident, since it should have been so simple to document.
I’ve had those same questions about Benny Hinn and his ministry. Given how money seems to be no object for him, and how he certainly employs plenty of camera crews involved in the production of his show, why haven’t any of these same camera crews participated in a follow-up show? Why doesn’t Benny Hinn put an end to all the speculation and simply send a couple of these camera guys home with the folks who say they were healed? American Idol is somehow able to give us camera footage of its contestants in their “natural habitats” – I remember distinctly how one year they even followed one girl (who ended up becoming a finalist) around as she did her mail route (she was a mail carrier). Why doesn’t Benny Hinn do the same thing?
I’ve been following the stories of Todd Bentley and the “outpouring” that is happening at his meetings in Lakeland, Florida. Recently, the internet was abuzz with chatter about the miracles that have been taking place there. One miracle story was particularly spectacular. Supposedly, a little girl who had been dead for two days and was on her way to “get her organs harvested” suddenly coughed and sat up, brought to life again.
There was footage – which I haven’t been able to find again – of Todd Bentley on the stage in Lakeland, speaking with the little girl’s father by cell phone. As Todd relayed what the dad was telling him about the girl’s being raised from the dead, the crowd simply went wild. When Todd got off the phone, he said to the crowd, “So where’s CNN now?” Everybody roared and cheered in agreement.
I actually had the same question as Todd Bentley – where were the news people?
Of course, Christians will say that the news folks, of a liberal bent and out to discount the miraculous (unless it’s a “crying” stained glass window or something associated with New Age teachings), have such a bias against the Christian faith that they would never promote miracles by pursuing such a story. And to some degree, they’re probably right.
But what about the Christian media? Certainly a publication like Charisma Magazine ought to be able to follow up on a story as thrilling as a child who was dead for two days but is now alive again, right?
You’d think so. And, in fact, Charisma HAS done several news stories about Lakeland. One of these stories was published on May 22, 2008 and does mention this particular incident.
But for me, Charisma’s “coverage” of this story raises more questions than it answers.
First of all, what is arguably this outpouring’s most spectacular miracle to date is not even mentioned until the eighteenth paragraph. The story of the little girl who was raised from the dead is buried deep within Charisma’s accounts of all that is happening with the revival.
Moreover, the only thing Charisma finds to say about this story, in terms of documentation, is, “The hospital denied the report.”
That one line simply boggles my mind. While I give Charisma credit for at least having the integrity to mention the hospital’s response, I simply cannot understand why their reporters would not have pursued this answer in more depth.
For instance, WHY did the hospital “deny the report”? (I can immediately think of something that made ME wonder – I’m no medical professional, but even I know that organs are not harvested off of 2-day-old cadavers! Certainly this little detail doesn’t add up!)
Also, even if the HOSPITAL denied the report, there would have to be plenty of other witnesses who could have confirmed that this actually happened. I mean, what about the girl’s doctors? The employees who work in the morgue? What about the nurses? Even the hospital custodians? Surely SOMEBODY who had been there when this thing happened would remember it and be excited to talk about it, right?
The fact that Charisma, a publication with a natural bias toward believing in the Lakeland outpouring and promoting what’s going on there, did nothing to pursue this story tells me that they must know it’s fake.
What is wrong with all the people who aren’t pursuing these things? I just don’t understand why the Christians who are so eager to believe in and promote the dramatic miraculous don’t do more to document what ought to be very easily proven. If a little girl really did die and was raised from the dead two days later, praise God! But let’s see a copy of the death certificate. Let’s see her medical records.
And if it turns out that this story, presented to such cheering acclaim in a very public and publicized meeting broadcast on the internet, turns out to be false or even partially inaccurate, then these inaccuracies ought to be publicized.
To do any less shows a bizarre lack of integrity that is woefully out of line with the Christian faith. I believe Jesus would be ashamed of those who tell lies in His name.

AMEN, Sister.
Staying Within the Confines of the Word of God
God has left us His Word and His Spirit to give us direction for our lives. Our lives are to be governed by the Word of God with the help of the Holy Spirit. (Psalm 119:105, John 16:13, Romans 8:14) When we go outside of the parameters of the Word of God we open the door to demonic deception. (Ephesians 4:27)
There are 3 doctrines being taught in the church today that in my opinion are very harmful because they open the door to demonic power to manifest in the church. The first one is that if you are a prophet you can prophesy to anyone you want at will because you are a prophet. This doctrine violates the Word of God. The Word of God says in 1 Corinthians 12:11 the gifts of the Spirit operate as God wills, not as we will. 2 Peter 1:21 says that prophecy never comes by the will of man. Ironically if you get into verse one of chapter two he begins to warn the church about false prophets. When a person operates the gifts of the Spirit by his own will he opens the door to familiar spirits that are demonic to give him information. That person now becomes a Christian medium for demonic power. Even Jesus could not operate the gifts of the Spirit as He willed because He was operating as the son of man on the earth. He had put His mighty power and glory to the side and had to be anointed to function for God. (John 5:19, 20, 30, Philippians 2:7 TLB, Acts 10:38)
The second doctrine that I also see that is damaging to the church is the doctrine of seeking angelic visitations and asking God to give you visions. No where in scripture do we see this. There is no biblical basis for this. The Bible says we walk by faith and not by sight. (2 Corinthians 5:7) Again seeing into the spirit realm is done thru the gift of discerning of spirits which is one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. Again like prophecy this gift operates as the spirit wills. When you go outside of the Word of God you open yourself up for demonic deception and you will begin to have visions of angels and Jesus but it will be devils that transform themselves as angels of light to deceive people.(2 Corinthians 11:12-15)
Colossians2:18-19(The Message Translation)Don’t tolerate people who try to run your life, ordering you to bow and scrape, insisting that you join their obsession with angels and that you seek out visions. They’re a lot of hot air, that’s all they are. They’re completely out of touch with the source of life, Christ, who puts us together in one piece, whose very breath and blood flow through us. He is the Head and we are the body. We can grow up healthy in God
The third doctrine that is damaging to the body of Christ is that you can go to Heaven and visit any time you want to. They use Hebrews 4:16, Ephesians 2:6 these doctrines are doctrines of devils devised in these last days to cause people to fall away. (1Timothy 4:1-2, 2 Timothy 4:1-5) When you start visualizing and doing some of the new age stuff they are teaching about this you will have supernatural experiences but they won’t be from Jehovah God but from the god of this world the devil.
Hebrews 5:14 tells us that thru the use of the meat of the Word of God we train our senses to discern both good and evil. Let us judge things by the Word of God and the inward witness of the Holy Ghost.(1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, John 16:13, Romans 8:14,16, 1 John 4:1)
Cheryl and Al,
Thanks for your comments.
Al, I actually saw what you posted on another site and thought it was so good that I considered copying it to this site. I’m glad you dropped by. I would agree with all three of your points.
Your first point is especially interesting to me because we experienced this firsthand. “Prophecy-at-will” was something that took place all the time at our former church. Pastor Smith (not his real name) considered himself to be a real true prophet. He was always promoted as such by visiting ministers. Quite often he would announce that a particular service was going to be a “Prophetic Service.” He’d declare that “the prophetic was going to flow” on such-and-such a night. And sure enough, he would devote a large percentage of the evening to pulling people out of the audience and “prophesying” over them.
It seemed to be something that he did at will – as though it were fully at his discretion.
Along those same lines was the “power of God.” We’d hear things about future services where Pastor Smith would say, “The power of God is going to fall tonight…”
And then sure enough, he’d lay hands on people and they’d fall down.
I came to the realization that Pastor Smith genuinely believed that he somehow personally was a “dispenser” of the very presence and power of God. It was like he believed he had “God on tap.” He chose whom he’d lay hands on. He chose whom he’d prophesy over. He chose whether or not to have a prayer line…or to run out into the audience and randomly touch people and cause them to fall down.
I believe that this is why the entire Smith family felt free to behave like a bunch of divas…why they believed they were somehow very special and set apart and utterly DESERVING of the celebrity treatment. After all, how heady could it be, to believe that you had the God of the universe at your beck and call…the God of the universe at your fingertips to dispense at will?
People have been trained by the WOF and charismaniac churches to believe these reports without question. We have been “dumbed down” by false teaching, and the examples that we have seen for so many years, that only those who will ask the hard questions will find the truth.
True miracles will always point people to Jesus and His Greatness. This so called “revival” in Florida does no such thing. Bentley talks more about angels and “seeing things” than he does about knowing Jesus. So sad that many only look to the “miracles” and will not see what is really going on.
Many people are only seeking signs and wonders and a “spiritual buzz.” The devil can easily provide these things for them. But only Jesus can provide that true peace that comes from knowing Him.
If we seek first His Kingdom and His Righteousness then we will not settle for anything less than the truth.
What Al said is so true, I pray that all who have ears will hear.
Thank you so much for posting the truth on this blog.
I wonder why often the initial reaction to reports of healing and miracles is that of skepticism. A life of miracles is a life of biblical normalcy. We shouldn’t be shocked when healings break out, but rather, we should be shocked when they don’t. There is much in scripture that we aren’t experiencing, and this should bother us. Angelic visitations, dreams, visions, healings, etc. are normal. If we are living outside of the biblical norm, it’s a problem that we should take very seriously.
Is there hype and even misrepresentation of the truth in the revival scene? At times most probably. But, we need to be more concerned with our lack of the manifestation of God’s working than with what’s going on in somebody else’s world.
Live a life of integrity. Live a life of miracles. If either is lacking, there is a serious issue we must address.
[...] either is lacking, there is a serious issue we must address. (You can read the original blog post here.) Tags: skeptical, skepticism, biblical+norm, revival, todd+bentley, lakeland, florida, healing, [...]
For the record, I do not believe that the Bible supports the notion that a “life of angelic visitations, dreams, and visions” is the NORM for Christians. Throughout the Bible, angelic visitations took place only occasionally, when God had something specific and important to communicate with His people. Moreover, even the Apostle Paul, who arguably wrote (through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) a major portion of the New Testament, did not feel released to tell the details of his vision of heaven – his ONE vision of heaven that is even mentioned in the Scriptures.
Plus, these modern-day “prophets” with their so-called “visions” seem to be hearing and seeing an awful lot of stuff that either does not even remotely come true, or else is very incompatible with what God has already revealed to us in the Bible.
I’d say the burden of proof is on the people proclaiming the miracles and the visions and the prophecies.
And if they can’t stand the harsh light of Scripture and an honest quest for truth, then they’re not worth much. In fact, we Christians ought to be ashamed for participating in the hype.
Here is the comment I left on r180’s blog, in response to his comment above:
Uh, are you saying that the TRUTH of a wild claim like a two-days-dead girl being raised from the dead is somehow dependent upon the faith of those who hear this claim? Because that doesn’t really make any sense. Either she was truly dead, or she wasn’t. End of discussion. Whether I have faith for this or not, there’s either a death certificate that exists for that 2-day period when she was supposedly dead…there are doctors and nurses and other hospital personnel who knew she was dead and helped wheel her little body to the morgue…or somebody lied.
My question is NOT whether God can raise the dead. Of course He can! He’s God! But if the hospital where this event took place is denying that it happened, we Christians – in the interest of the integrity that you claim to value – should be aggressively pursuing the truth. And retracting the exaggerations and the hype, if that’s what caused the “misunderstanding.” Otherwise, whether our faith is great or small, we are participating in the lies. And we all know who the “father of lies” is…and it ain’t God!
Strange–I’ve tried to get this typed three times and somehow I keep hitting something and wiping it all out.
Anyway, a great post and some great comments!
I can only speak for myself but I didn’t start out a skeptic when it comes to healings. I have only become a bit of a cynic after watching some of these ‘prophets’ claim one thing after another only to find out later that the ‘healed’ were still sick, etc. I sat in a cell group with a guy coughing and hacking and wheezing but wouldn’t let us pray over him because one of these morons had convinced him he had already been healed.
I think one of the reasons so many are reluctant to question the authenticity of Bentley’s (and others’) claims is that they’re waiting for their OWN miracle. If they question, they are exhibiting doubt…..if they doubt, they are (in their minds) sabotaging their own miracles.
I have a friend who’s quite caught up in the Lakeland thing from a distance. She has a son with a chronic illness and can’t honestly evaluate the whole Bentley thing because she needs a miracle for her son. At least that’s how it appears. I know in the past she’s asked us not to be negative about some of these things because she has to believe for her own son.
This supposed outpouring begs a question or two. If the only thing being promised in Lakeland was revival, sans the healings, gold dust, etc., would anybody be packing out the venues?” Would they be flocking to Florida if the only promises were only freedom from sin and walking in righteousness?
Karen,
Like you, I did not start out a skeptic! I’m so glad you said that.
I believed everything – simply everything – that we were told about healings and miracles that had supposedly occurred. During the early part of our time at our former church, I sincerely believed that if I just walked in the power and authority of the Holy Spirit, I could raise the dead too.
I took this belief to such an extreme that I even put myself in some pretty embarrassing situations. Once, I heard of a friend of a friend of my family. This person was in the hospital, dying of cancer. I actually went to visit these total strangers. I brought a bouquet of flowers and my bottle of special anointing oil that had been prayed over at our church. I was not obnoxious or impolite – I did ask the family with this person if I could pray. And they agreed and seemed quite appreciative.
But the lady died, even though I had stepped out in total faith to what I believed God was telling me to do.
I have no regrets, by the way, for what I did. I’m not sorry in the least that I took a risk and stepped out in faith. I’d do it again, even now, if I were in the same place.
However, experiences like that, along with so many other (far worse) things I saw at our church, have caused me to think that there must be more to the whole “healing and miracles” thing than just naming and claiming.
Why is it that the only miracles that took place during the “miracle services” at our church involved migraines and back pain? Why was it that the little girl with cerebral palsy, who attended every one of those services, never jumped out of her wheelchair? Why didn’t the one blind guy, also in faithful attendance, ever get his sight back? Why did the “miracles” that DID happen seem so much less than those of Jesus?
And – more importantly – why were we always only TOLD of these really dramatic miracles? Why did all the “good stories” of people being raised from the dead have to happen thousands of miles away, in vague towns, with only first names, and never EVER any documentation?
In certain cases, I can understand if documentation were not available. But when it IS available – as would clearly be the situation in this Lakeland story, where there would be hospital records and a death certificate – why do we never get to see it? Why does nobody ever follow up on these things? Why do they all sound like urban legends?
What we need is a Christian version of the show “Mythbusters”!
(And I’m not even really joking.)
Also, Karen – you bring up such an amazing question:
Also…
I was thinking some more about “r140’s” comment, above.
Why are the miracle-promoting folks’ responses typically so hostile when people ask for documentation? Jesus Himself did not react that way when questioned by Thomas.
And Thomas had SEEN WITH HIS OWN EYES the fact that Jesus had died. It wasn’t just a story that had been repeated over the internet. Thomas, one of Jesus’ disciples, had been there while Jesus hung on the cross and died. He’d known firsthand, from friends of his who stuck around till the very end, that Jesus was put into a tomb that was then sealed with a large stone.
So when Thomas asked for proof of Jesus’ resurrection, Jesus of all people would have been perfectly justified in scoffing at Thomas and scolding him for his lack of faith. But Jesus did not do that. Instead, he allowed Thomas to see his scars and touch his pierced side.
Granted, Thomas was told that those with faith to believe in the resurrection without seeing would be “more blessed” than Thomas. But Jesus’ response to him was NOT one of anger or scorn.
Why do modern-day Charismatics think they’re above the level of proof that Jesus Himself willingly provided for one of his eye-witness disciples?
Really well analyzed, if there were good evidence for this resurrection would not the world media stop in its tracks, lose interest in Brittney’s underwear, if only briefly, and swoop down on the parties involved??
Would not everything we believe to be true, naturalistically speaking come into desperate question?
How hilarious that the line “the hospital denies the report” is mentioned in passing when it should have killed the whole story beyond any resurrection.
Thank you I was looking for some clarity on this event and the “revival” in Lakeland and you brought much illumination.
We know that false prophets will arise and even perform miracles. We know this. Our eyes may lie, but not the word of God.
He is coming!
I agree with you that much of what we are hearing about when it comes to much of the present revival movements appears to be outside of the Scriptures. While I believe in the living God who can give dreams, visions, angels, gifts, etc. I believe that this all must be tested by the clear teachings of the Scriptures which I don’t see taking place in Lakeland. I will hand it to Dr. Michael Brown and the Brownsville Revival back in the late 1990’s, at least Dr. Brown wanted to base their revival on repentance, holiness, and a call to salvation. I don’t see this at all in the Lakeland revival.
Charismania,
I really appreciate your well thought out arguments. I came across this site while looking for online documentation of supposed resurrctions at Lakeland.
A family member had an in-law die very recently and, like Karen’s friend, her circle of relatives and church friends have been closely following the Lakeland revival. Encouraged by the Lakeland revival and with some (in my opinion, shaky) biblical support, they decided to take the deceased to their church, before going to the funeral home. The deceased had been dead for more than 72 hours. There at the church, people with “strong faith” commanded the deceased to “come forth” as Jesus did Lazarus. I understand it didn’t work.
Another major impetus for this move was someone’s “vision” that the deceased would resurrect in this manner. I have no doubt that this prophet will not be held accountable for falsely speaking for God.
The attitude seemed to be that it “couldn’t hurt”. Should this be standard procedure among Christians? My understanding from the biblical record is that resurrections were rare events, explicitly commanded by God. On a practical side, it postponed the necessary grieving, and may worsen the grief since hopes were raised.
Anyway, thanks again for the posts and comments.
I would highly recommend to you a ministry called “Stand to Reason” at http://www.str.org. Check out their material on decision making and the will of god as well as moves of the spirit. I think you’ll like it.
You say, “Why don’t the Christians check out the story?” My challenge is: why don’t YOU check out the veracity of the story? You seem to be interested in debunking it – don’t just make insinuations – find out the truth and then publish it. MSNBC did an article so why don’t you follow up and give them the article for the online news.
Hi, “goodwordtoday,”
I would do just that, except I don’t have quite the same journalistic resources as Charisma magazine. You know?
Why don’t the reporters at Charisma do their job? That’s what I’m asking. They were given an ideal opportunity to investigate further, when “the hospital denied the story.” They already know which hospital in which town (I do not have this information). They might even have the little girl’s name, or that of her parents (again, I do not have this information). They so easily could have pushed for further details, but they did not. My question is, why not?
If they were convinced that this story were true, they would have pressed to investigate the hospital’s denial further, going so far as to “debunk” it by interviewing the girl’s parents, her attending doctor(s), perhaps some nurses or janitors. The fact that they did not speaks volumes. I believe it shows that the folks over at Charisma already KNOW that there’s nothing but hot air to this story.
And I’m NOT really interested in “debunking” the girl-raised-from-the-dead story. I wish it were true.
But I think exaggerations and outright lies give true Christianity – and the TRUE miracle of Christ’s resurrection from the dead after REALLY being in the grave for three days and TRULY being brought back to life for our salvation – a black eye.
Anyone defending the urban legend-type FAKE miracles – the folks getting angry at those of us crying out for the truth – ought to be ashamed of themselves.
Charismania,
I really appreciate your well thought out arguments. I came across this site while looking for online documentation of supposed resurrections at Lakeland.
A family member had an in-law die very recently and, like Karen’s friend, her circle of relatives and church friends have been closely following the Lakeland revival. Encouraged by the Lakeland revival and with some (in my opinion, shaky) biblical support, they decided to take the deceased to their church, before going to the funeral home. The deceased had been dead for more than 72 hours. There at the church, people with “strong faith” commanded the deceased to “come forth” as Jesus did Lazarus. I understand it didn’t work.
Another major impetus for this move was someone’s “vision” that the deceased would resurrect in this manner. I have no doubt that this prophet will not be held accountable for falsely speaking for God.
The attitude seemed to be that it “couldn’t hurt”. Should this be standard procedure among Christians? My understanding from the biblical record is that resurrections were rare events, explicitly commanded by God. On a practical side, it postponed the necessary grieving, and may worsen the grief since hopes were raised.
Anyway, thanks again for the posts and comments.
Given your concerne, I would highly recommend a ministry called “Stand to Reason” at http://www.str.org. Check out their material on decision making and the will of god as well as moves of the spirit. I think you’ll like it.
Charismania, you make some really valid points about authenticity. Your absolutely right these stories do need verification. I geuss that’s why The freshfire/integrity team keep asking for such.
We have been watching with great interest all that’s happening in lakeland. I can’t comment on the 2 day dead baby story, I have no way of verifying this. However, if this is not God and people are not being healed then there are a lot of liars in your country. Not only that they are prepared to lie on live TV knowing that when they return home they will look absolute charlies and be denounced by their communities. Surely by now a scam of this size would have been well and truly jumped on by the secular media.
Furthermore ‘ClarityRediscovered’ really needs to search their heart when they say ” Bentley talks more about angels and “seeing things” than he does about knowing Jesus.” -I have been watching for about ten days now. I have heard him mention angels a couple of times, but Jesus gets all the glory. He is also careful to claim it is the Holy Spirit that performs these great works. Also, that it not about him doing them, he has taken several nights off with little change in the momentum. He also has had a number of altar calls for folk to come to Christ. But concerning angels themselves isn’t Acts riddled with angelic appearances, and does not Paul say that they are ministering spirits. I really think the argument that the early church were anti- Angel is a bit ripe!
In our Town Jesus is more famous than He was a month a go. There are more people expecting His reality to effect our town. There is more repentance and more right living. Our church is being energised to reach out to the poor and rescue the sick in His Name. The Devil ain’t getting any glory here. It’s all going to Jesus. My Friend Chris was prayed for two weeks ago for Motor neurons disease. He has had absolutely no symptoms since- and he was getting quite ill. Does satan or Jesus get the glory in His life- I don’t think so!
I know your hearts in the right place. Your jealous for the kingdom of God, for integrity, but the baby story is just one of hundreds of claimed miracles. Very few of them are of the headache and backache variety. either blind people have been given sight or they haven’t, deaf their hearing or not. People are claiming to be able to do stuff they couldn’t do before. Surely the majority of them are telling the truth?
Charismania,
I really appreciate your well thought out arguments. I came across this site while looking for online documentation of supposed resurrections at Lakeland.
A family member had an in-law die very recently and, like Karen’s friend, her circle of relatives and church friends have been closely following the Lakeland revival. Encouraged by the Lakeland revival and with some (in my opinion, shaky) biblical support, they decided to take the deceased to their church, before going to the funeral home. The deceased had been dead for more than 72 hours. There at the church, people with “strong faith” commanded the deceased to “come forth” as Jesus did Lazarus. I understand it didn’t work.
Another major impetus for this move was someone’s “vision” that the deceased would resurrect in this manner. I have no doubt that this prophet will not be held accountable for falsely speaking for God.
The attitude seemed to be that it “couldn’t hurt”. Should this be standard procedure among Christians? My understanding from the biblical record is that resurrections were rare events, explicitly commanded by God. On a practical side, it postponed the necessary grieving, and may worsen the grief since hopes were raised.
Anyway, thanks again for the posts and comments.
Given your concerns, I would highly recommend to you a ministry called “Stand to Reason”. Check out their material on decision making and the will of God as well as new movements of the Spirit. I think you’ll like it.
somersetboy -
As I said, I’d like to believe that people wouldn’t lie. As a matter of fact, I don’t believe that these people ARE lying. I think they are being carried along by “word of faith” crowd psychology. I’ve been to many such meetings, and I’ve seen exactly the sorts of things that are happening in Lakeland – the person who comes up on stage and says, “I’ve been cured of my cancer because I felt a heat going through my arm.”
Maybe they were cured. But maybe they’re just saying they are because they BELIEVE that they are.
If these dramatic things are really happening as you describe, and are not just the products of hype and crowd psychology, then where is the documentation?
For the blind folks who can now supposedly see, where are their opthamologists with their medical charts? Where are the amputated limbs growing back? The quadraplegic folks who have been wheelchair-bound for years being able to walk again? Where is the cancer patient’s oncologist declaring the patient cancer-free immediately after attending one of these meetings?
THOSE are the quality of miracles that Jesus did. None of this, “I think I’m healed, therefore I will speak the word of faith and believe that I am…therefore I will say that I can do things I wasn’t able to do.”
I still don’t understand why my appeals for documentation bug people. If these things happened as people are claiming, then how can Jesus “get the glory” if there continues to be doubt cast upon their stories? Especially if they actually HAD medical conditions that were documented in the first place, where they could so easily prove to the world that they were healed?
Why is it wrong to ask the hard questions? Certainly Jesus is big enough for the hard questions?
http://phoenixpreacher.com/cms/ has a large readership and is covering this story on almost a daily basis now.
Hi, Rawlings…
Thanks for your comment.
Like I said, I wish that my reasoning didn’t ring so much more true than the stories coming out of Lakeland.
But I am so sick of supposed “miracles” that are little more than vague urban legends. For every person who writes about the “hundreds of testimonies,” there have yet to be more than a couple of documented stories – IF that.
Here’s the thing, though. If it can be proven that ONE of these stories (like the supposed resurrection of the 2-days-dead child) was reported inaccurately or was downright embellished or exaggerated, and Scott Bentley and his crew don’t bother to publicly retract it, then what does that say about their credibility?
If they truly had confidence in the miraculous happenings, then they would be EAGER to provide corrections and retractions. They would not be comfortable knowing that they are continuing to deceive the crowds that come to see them, and the crowds that watch over the internet. How many millions of viewers saw the “resurrected child” story being reported as the gospel truth? How many victims were there of that “possibly inaccurate” story?
Even if 100 people were dramatically healed, I believe that ONE lie puts such a huge dent in this “outpouring’s” credibility that more Christians ought to be worried about this. Why are Christians so willing to ignore the inaccuracies? Why isn’t a publication like Charisma magazine eagerly following up and seeking out the truth?
In response to somersetboy. The comments that I made are not in response to just what Todd Bentley has preached in Lakeland, but from the teachings that he has shared over the years. He along with Patricia King and Bob Jones have put a great amount of emphasis on angelic visitations and their leadings. Their talk about “blue flames” and “white light” are very concerning. I have searched my heart and am troubled that there are issues in the church like this today. I have ministered the Gospel in many countries around the world and have seen many “genuine” miracles of God where there was no question about what happened. These miracles always pointed the people to Jesus, I hope that this is what is happening in Lakeland.
I also read a blog from Lee Grady, the editor of Charisma magazine. Although he seems to support the revival, he raises some very interesting questions. It reads as follows:
Honest Questions About the Lakeland Revival
by J. Lee Grady
I support any holy outbreak of revival fervor. But let’s be careful to guard ourselves from pride and error.
God is stirring deep spiritual passion in the hearts of the thousands of people who have traveled to Florida during the last month to experience the Lakeland Healing Revival. Since these meetings began in a 700-seat church on April 2, the crowd has moved four times to bigger venues, the fervor has intensified and the news has spread worldwide—thanks to God TV and online broadcasting.
Within a few weeks, the bandwagon effect was in full swing. It’s safe to say that no outbreak of Pentecostalism in history has gained so much international exposure so quickly as these meetings have.
I’m a cheerleader for the charismatic movement, so I rejoiced when I heard the news about revivalist Todd Bentley’s extended visit to Ignited Church. It was thrilling to hear the reports of miracles and to watch the crowd grow until a stadium was required to hold everyone.
“When we put bizarre behavior on the platform we imply that it is normative. Thus more strange fire is allowed to spread.”
When I visited a service on April 15, I was blessed by Heather Clark’s music and the audience’s exuberant worship. And I laughed with everyone else as I watched Bentley shout his trademarked “Bam! Bam! Bam!” as he prayed for the sick and flailed his tattooed arms over the crowd. Hey, Jesus didn’t pray for people according tothe Pharisees’ rulebook, so I’m open to unconventional methods.
But I would be dishonest if I told you that I wholeheartedly embraced what I saw in Lakeland. Something disturbed me, but I kept my mouth shut for three weeks while I prayed, got counsel from respected ministry leaders and searched my heart to make sure I was not harboring a religious spirit. The last thing we need today is more mean-spirited heresy hunters blasting other Christians.
I am not a heresy hunter, and I support what is happening in Lakeland because I know God uses imperfect people (like me and you) to reach others for Jesus. At the same time, I believe my questions are honest and my concerns are real.
My motive is not to criticize Bentley or the pastor who is sponsoring these meetings, Stephen Strader. In September 2002 Charisma featured a seven-page article about Bentley’s amazing conversion from drug addiction. I believe Bentley is a sincere brother who wants people to encounter God’s presence and power. No doubt this 32-year-old evangelist needs our prayers now more than ever, especially since he has become the focus of international media attention.
But as the noise from Lakeland grows louder and its influence spreads, I’m issuing some words of warning that apply to all of us, not just the folks in Lakeland. I hope everyone understands that these cautions are offered in love:
1. Beware of strange fire.The name of Jesus is being lifted up in the Lakeland revival, and three people came to the altar for salvation the night I attended. Larger numbers have come to the front of the auditorium to find Christ every night since then.
Yet I fear another message is also being preached subtly in Lakeland—a message that cult-watchers would describe as a spiritual counterfeit. Bentley is one of several charismatic ministers who have emphasized angels in the last several years. He has taught about angels who bring financial breakthroughs or revelations, and he sometimes refers to an angel named Emma who supposedly played a role in initiating a prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. Bentley describes Emma as a woman in a flowing white dress who floats a few feet off the floor.
All of us who believe the Bible know that angels are real, and that they work on our behalf to protect us and minister to us. But the apostle Paul, who had encounters with angels himself, issued stern warnings to the Corinthians, the Galatians and the Colossians about angels who preach another gospel or that demand attention. In Colossae, believers were so enamored with angels they had seen in visions that they became “inflated without cause” by spiritual pride (Col. 2:18, NASB). Paul was adamant that preoccupation with angels can lead to serious deception.
We need to tread carefully here! We have no business teaching God’s people to commune with angels or to seek revelations from them. And if any revival movement—no matter how exciting or passionate—mixes the gospel of Jesus with this strange fire, the results could be devastating. We need to remember that Mormonism was born out of one man’s encounter with a dark angel who claimed to speak for God.
2. Beware of bizarre manifestations.When the Holy Spirit’s power comes on people they may feel weak or even fall. The Spirit’s power can also cause people to tremble, shake, laugh or cry. Such manifestations are biblical and we should leave room for them. But where do we draw the line between legitimate experience and fanatical excess?
The apostle Paul had to deal with outrageous charismatic manifestations in the Corinthian church. People were acting like raving lunatics—and turning the church in to a free-for-all of unbridled ecstatic behavior. Paul called for discipline and order, and he reminded early Christians that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32). In other words, Paul was saying that no one under the influence of the Holy Spirit should act out of control.
In many recent charismatic revivals, ministers have allowed people to behave like epileptics on stage—and they have attributed their attention-getting antics to the Holy Spirit. We may think it’s all in fun (you know, we’re just “acting crazy” for God) but we should be more concerned that such behavior feeds carnality and grieves the Spirit.
When exotic manifestations are encouraged, people can actually get a religious high from jerking, vibrating, screaming or acting intoxicated. (I have even been around people who writhed as if in pain, or made sexual noises—thinking this was a legitimate spiritual experience.) But emotional euphoria doesn’t guarantee a heart change. The person who is bucking like an untamed bronco in a church service would benefit more from sitting still and reading the Bible for an hour. When we put bizarre behavior on the platform we imply that it is normative. Thus more strange fire is allowed to spread.
3. Beware of hype and exaggeration.Our hearts are crying out today for a genuine move of God. We want the real deal. We’ve read about the Great Awakenings of the past and we long to see our nation overcome by a wave of repentance. The church is in a backslidden state, and our nation has rebelled against God. We are desperate!
In our longing for a holy visitation, however, we must be careful not to call the first faint breeze of the Spirit a full-fledged revival. If we do that, we are setting people up for disappointment when they realize it may not be what we blew it up to be.
Some of the language used during the Lakeland Revival has created an almost sideshow atmosphere. People are invited to “Come and get some.” Miracles are supposedly “popping like popcorn.” Organizers tout it as the greatest revival in history.
Such brash statements cheapen what the Holy Spirit is doing—and they do a disservice to our brothers and sisters who are experiencing New Testament-style revival in countries such as Iran, China and India. We have a long way to go before we experience their level of revival. Let’s stay humble and broken before the Lord.
I am rejoicing over all the reported healings at the Lakeland meetings. Miracles are awesome. Crowds are great. But miracles and crowds alone don’t guarantee a revival. Multitudes followed Jesus during His ministry on earth, but many of the people who saw the dead raised or ate food that was supernaturally multiplied later crucified the Son of God.
It was the few disciples who followed Jesus after Calvary who ushered in a true revival—one that was bathed in the fear of God, confirmed by signs and wonders, tempered by persecution and evidenced by thousands of conversions, new churches and the transformation of society. We should expect nothing less.
J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma.
GF
Hey, Clarity…
Thanks for your comment. I agree with you that true miracles leave no doubt and always point to Jesus.
I also agree with your assessment of Todd Bentley’s previous teachings. He has given a LOT of credit for his ministry to the “mantle” of William Branham, and claims William Branham’s “healing angel.”
If Todd Bentley and company KNOW their teachings are A-OK, then why have so many key documents recently been removed from Bentley’s website? At least three rather long posts about heavenly visits, angels, and some serious New Age-y sounding stuff have been removed from his website in recent days.
To me, this demonstrates that there is some heavy cleanup and “image grooming” going on here, now that more attention is being focused on Todd.
But he and his mentors (Patricia King in particular) have demonstrated some SERIOUS doctrinal aberrations in recent years. I’d be interested to know if he’s ever publicly repented of any of this stuff?
And oh yeah, thanks for posting J. Lee Grady’s message. I thought it was good and sensible. I’m just wishing that he could lead his magazine, Charisma to put some teeth to his cautions and actually investigate the veracity of what’s coming out of the “outpouring.”
I agree that wild claims that turn out to be false do severe damage to credibility. It taints the church’s image in the eyes of the world and may shake the faith of the weak and wavering.
And I completely agree that the claims of Christianity must hold up against scrutinty, tough scrutiny; otherwise it’s an empty worldview.
And this accountability carries over into modern day claims by Christians who say they speak for God or claim God acted this way or that. These are serious claims and we ought to treat them as such. There are biblical guidelines for how to treat those who falsely claim to speak for God, and it’s not just slap on the wrist, and certainly not a free pass…
As to why Christians do not eagerly follow up and seek out the truth, I think there are several factors. The one Karen mentioned above–wanting it to be true and therefore unwilling to investigate. Another reason may be a misunderstanding of the biblical’s stance on judgment. Not all judging is wrong. Finding out the truth of a claim is a kind of judging we must do. As part of church discipline, we are also to judge among believers (1 Cor 5) and correct foolishness and wickedness. Another reason may be that Christian journalists don’t want to embarass their Christian brothers or think that correction should be done in public. And maybe we need to do some thinking about this. But these revivals and their wild claims are being done in public and it seems reasonable to call them on it in public.
Other reasons I’ve heard for why not to investigate: the inherent foolishness of the Gospel (I know, it’s crazy); charges not to “quench” or “grieve” the Holy Spirit (this is just a verse taken out of context); and statements like you can’t put “God in a box”; He can do whatever He wants (true, but we want to find out what He actually did–or did not).
Maybe the age of the internet, instant communication, and personal digital recording devices will bring with it some additional accountability. Blogs like this may be one way that we help keep the revivalists accountable.
What is interesting is that even if this story is true, and the girl was miraculously brought back to life, who is to say that God only did so because of Todd Bentley’s ministry? Perhaps God heard and answered the prayer of her parents or a genuine anonymous intercessor. Or perhaps He was entirely moved with compassion for this little girl. In Charismania especially, usually God gets the glory for miracles only after all the saints pat each other on the back for being the ones with or within the vicinity of the supposed anointing that initiated the miracle. And they quickly get excited because they too may see a sign or receive a miracle. This apparent fervor in the crowd was and is rooted in man’s strong tendency to desire to see signs and miracles and to testify of other men (Todd Bentley, Pastor Smith, etc). Chapter 2 of the Gospel of John clearly illustrated this:
Verses 23-25: “Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.”
They saw the healing signs of His ministry and would have set Him up as the man with the anointing; He could have started a mega-church right then and there. But He did not commit Himself to them. Why? Because He knew what was in men and had no need that anyone should testify of Him. He was destined for the cross in His life on earth, not stardom! If only Charismaniac preachers would read and understand these verses!
I also think of how Jesus traveled throughout the land and word of His miraculous ministry went far and wide. People came flocking to Him, not necessarily because He was the Son of God (the Way, the Truth, the Life) but rather because they wanted a miracle for themselves or someone they loved. Jesus knew what was in the heart of man and yet He was moved with unending grace and compassion to heal – regardless of their motives. Perhaps Charismania is caught up in a misguided fervor, and I in no way condone it; but I know God looks with unending compassion upon all those who seek a real and genuine miracle. I can just see Jesus walking through a crowd of Charismaniacs, many clamoring for money or some sort of vain blessing, and yet He turns to a cripple and heals the one who truly is in need. And then He turns to the church and asks, “I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.” (Matthew 25:45)
David -
Excellent thoughts.
Awhile back, when we were struggling to figure out what was going on in our Charismaniac church and why so much was obviously so wrong, one of my biggest hurdles to overcome was that I’d had a genuine Holy Spirit experience at our Charismaniac church.
I had an almost impossible time coming to grips with the fact that sometimes God will choose to work through a ministry almost IN SPITE OF the people involved. I used to think that about some of the good stuff that happened at Living Word. Pastor Smith seemed to be pretty puffed up and proud of himself for various “successes,” and yet I’d sit there and think, “I’ll bet this had nothing to do with Pastor Smith…but was because of some poor person’s desperation and faith.”
By the way, I found this site, which explains in more detail the disappearing information from Todd Bentley’s website:
http://blog.thewaycf.com/2008/05/todd-bentley-do-we-have-anything-to.html
What do y’all think?
The little girl died… again. It was announced in Wednesday night’s meeting during Todd’s ‘preaching’ on raising the dead. His offsider Kara said it was because a “new age lady went in and prayed for her”.
He said “Do you know why [she died again]? So we can pray for her again”.
MM -
So am I to understand that this was discussed from the platform, in front of the people in the audience? At least that’s a sign that they’re trying to be a little bit upfront.
I just received J. Lee Grady’s mass email calling for “unity” in the church regarding the Florida “outpouring.”
He’s really talking out of both sides of his mouth, because the rest of the email actually does a good job outlining people’s concerns with Todd Bentley and his teachings.
I personally don’t think there can BE unity if the “Christians” in question are practicing and valuing different faiths. And since so much of what Todd used to teach – up until recently, when lots of his previous writings were removed from his website – departs dramatically from Biblical Christianity, I’m not sure what sort of faith he’s actually practicing. It seems more like a mixture of New Age spirituality done in Jesus’ name.
I personally refuse to be unified with THAT.
And by the way – I’m NOT calling into question whether Todd is a Christian or not. Only God can know that for sure. But God HAS given us His Word, which clearly does question many of the things that Todd Bentley and this revival are promoting.
Remember – just because seemingly good things happen (like the proported healings), or good feelings are produced (such as the drunken euphoric “highs” that people are reporting), or most importantly, that the name of Jesus is bandied about, that DOES NOT MEAN that the spirit at work is automatically the Holy Spirit.
Jesus told His disciples that many would come IN HIS NAME and yet would be false teachers.
Not saying I agree with everything or really anything going on down there in Lakeland. But I wanted to comment on the story of the little girl coming back to life. She could be dead, brain dead, with no functions of her body working except for those made to work by machines, i.e. respirator, heart pump, dialysis, etc. Technically she is dead and they could take her to have her organs harvested after 2 days. Being raised to life, by whatever means it happened, even from that state is as miraculous as coming out of the morgue to me because she was dead physically and the machines were just keeping her organs viable for someone else to have transplanted. BTW, I live nowhere near Florida and I have no personal stake or thoughts on the “revival” there. I don’t really have any opinion on it either as I haven’t seen enough or read enough on what’s going on there.
Will,
I understand what you’re saying, and you very likely are correct in your guess as to what they meant by “raised from the dead” – IF any of the rest of it even happened the way they said.
But – technically, the little girl then was NOT DEAD. She was merely IN A COMA.
You cannot call that a resurrection. She was technically still alive. That’s why there have been court cases about the legality of disconnecting people from life support. That’s why her organs would still have been viable for transplants. She WASN’T dead. At least parts of her were being kept alive and were STILL ALIVE at the time when she supposedly sat up in the morgue, sneezed, and “came back to life.”
I don’t think this is just a technicality. I think it is a HUGE discrepency, and it bugs me that any Christian anywhere would try to defend this. You cannot call something a “resurrection” when it was really someone waking up from a comatose state. Yes, awaking from a coma is still a pretty cool miracle. But it’s not a “resurrection”!
And calling it a resurrection is just lies and hype. When will they come out with clarification and a retraction?
Todd had to subsequently announce that the little girl died again after “some new age person got to her and prayed for her”.
Yeah, right. The only new age person involved in this is Todd.
So they basically admitted that a new age person has the power to undo what God has done. Well, that’s not my God. The longer this goes on, the deeper a hole he’ll dig for himself.
Either the child was dead and isn’t any more, or the story was a lie. Simple as that.
The doctrine of faith was never about “believing something that we have absolutely no evidence for”– in Biblical times, there was no doubt in ANYONE’s mind that the supernatural existed. Unlike today, where science has definitely left us with some questions as to God’s place in the universe, in the past the reality of a God was pretty much a given absolute.
So where does faith come in?
Faith is all about having confidence in the fact that God is looking out for your best interests. Faith is all about loving someone enough to take the chance that you could be hurt or disappointed.
In essence, faith is about loving someone more than yourself– loving them so much that you need them, and nothing else will do, even if that means you have to take a chance and trust them, as scary as that can be.
So, in response to some of the earlier comments made about how lack of faith will contribute to a lack of the miraculous in my everyday life– that’s hogwash, complete and utter lies made up to smooth over a cynic’s perception of the world. It isn’t true.
Here’s why: if I bury my head in the sand and tell you that the sky is NOT blue, no matter how stupid that might be. I can tell you that I believe that it isn’t blue, that it’s green or red or brown. But that doesn’t change reality, no matter how much I believe it.
When non-believers saw miracles throughout the various accounts of scripture, they THEN believed. Not beforehand. They had no faith, then BOOM! Suddenly, men like Paul who believed the exact opposite of the divinity of Christ became “persuaded.”
So, to put it simply: the reality of the miraculous does not depend on my faith. I may choose not to accept something out of sheer stupidity, but if it’s real, if it’s genuine, then me lying to myself (and that’s all it is) is just a waste of time, because it doesn’t change the truth. The existence of the supernatural doesn’t depend on my trust. Otherwise, we’d never see heaven. ‘Cause let’s be frank: we all have doubts.
Editor -
You are absolutely right. After all, the TRUE miraculous is when the supernatural invades everyday NORMAL reality and we see undeniable empiracal evidence of a change in condition that cannot be explained by natural means.
So it’s silly to proclaim something to be a miracle if it hasn’t clearly already happened.
At best, it’s wishful thinking. But the dark side is, at worst it’s LYING.
I stumbled on your website and have enjoyed your article enormously. I was part of the whole prophetic apostolic movement and I dont think most people would even beleive the things I saw. It is a wonder I am still serving God!
I think you might enjoy this article- goes into depth on the Todd Bentley- occult connection
http://www.deceptionbytes.com/Todd-Bentleys-Fire-of-Kundalini
Keep writing!
Todd has recently hired additional staff to verify the claims of healings. He is doing live broadcasts and a lot of this stuff is reported as it is happening.
The other side of this is that there is a very well documented resurrection from West Virginia – Val Thomas. You can read about it here…
http://rahabsplace.wordpress.com/2008/05/22/this-is-one-of-the-resurrections/
Rahabsplace,
Again, the story you link to is not really a “resurrection.” This lady’s heart had stopped several times, and they were keeping her alive on a respirator.
That’s NOT the same as being declared dead, with a death certificate, where you are off of life support for many hours and are in a morgue somewhere, refrigerated with the other dead bodies.
I’m sorry, but calling all these stories of dramatic recoveries “resurrections” is cheapening the only resurrection that really matters – that of Jesus.
I’m not saying that it’s not a cool story, that this lady has been given another shot at life after coming close to death. Praise God that He intervened the way that He did. But why, OH WHY, must we persist in calling these incidents “raising the dead”??? Once more, we have yet another case of a lady who was not actually dead yet.
Here’s my standard for declaring someone has been “raised from the dead” -
It needs to be a person who was ACTUALLY DEAD. Not kept alive by ventilator to wait for organ donation. Not left alone for 15 minutes because he/she had no vital signs. I’m talking dead. With full rigor mortis having set in, stone-cold dead.
If people are truly getting “raised from the dead,” they will be sitting up in their caskets…even AFTER their organs have been harvested.
After all, if God can create gold teeth, surely He can replace hearts, livers, kidneys, and corneas, right?
So would least 15 minutes do then, Ian McCormack, don’t get me wrong, God forgive me if wrong, but I’ve been warning and worried on this Lakeland thing and reporting on it on my website, home main page at the bottom.
However in watching recent events, I hear Jesus mentioned more and odd Bible reading, things that were said not to have been the case before.
However that said I’m still concerned having read a lot of stuff on the net and so keep the one article from charisma mag etc.
As for Ian:
http://aglimpseofeternity.org/
For which I downloaded and now do and give away the DVD re-enactment films, it has always remained consistent and he has always said copy it freely:
You can watch and listen for yourself:
http://www.freecdtracts.com/testimony/ian_mccormack.htm
There is no doubt and no mistake of what God does, see my personal testimony, I promise you on any one’s life, it is 100% true, heck can’t make up something that weird sounding, so I know God and satan exist and things happen:
http://www.4hurtingchristians.com/my_powerful_story.html
Oh yeah you can now download and hear me tell it, if I did not know me I’d say what poppy cock too, amen, but I know and I lived it, and I’m no lier, I’ve never since starting any Christian website, running them, last few years asked for a penny and speak out against those like Peter Popoff and Don Stewart, I just love revealing truth.
So charismania while I’ve read most the postings here and looked for bad things on Lakeland and so on, and so agreed with you much of the time I did feel strongly enough to finally say hang on though, it does and has happened.
My biggest worry and only question is, is it happen, really happening in Jesus name at Lakeland.
I don’t care what he looks like, it’s all this other business that keeps being reported.
So far as usual no reply from God TV, why I stopped supporting them years back over the Steve Muncey or Muncie and Mike Murdock way of asking for money, even if was genuine, it misleads and gives people impression that one needs to pay for a miracle, or prayer request, or worse still to get money, wealthy we need to sow a seed.
The seed was the word, remember, good ground, thorns, so on, but they now have made the seed the money tithe.
I’m not sure whether Rory is taken in, or knows, but does not care because heck it furthers God’s cause, no harm done.
I love Howard and Lesley of Revelation TV, but I stopped donating to them even recently with the refusal to remove Don Stewart and his miracle green handkerchiefs nonsense.
I said, surely this can’t be of God and that I’d rather lose Revelation TV and struggle to run Genesis, than talk out about these things, and yet then run a channel with people like it on it, getting rich off of people, just so it keeps the channels going.
So in other words I’d rather lose the good my website is doing than be a hypocrite and, well you know.
I’m not perfect, sinner like anyone else and have often pulled things, I it used to be 4 Hurting Christians Ministry and me as Brother Lee, I dropped all that, I struggle in lust, I’m so flawed.
We know someone genuine when they admit that, trouble is, if Bentley admitted it, assuming he has anything to hide and is not perfect still, yet, then people would smell a rat and run.
At what point do we say, is this really God and if so how do I keep it that way and tell people nightly this is not about me (Lee) – (Todd) so on, but Yeshua, amen.
See my previous posting, but I have more to now add on this:
I just been watching what I had watched the night before and must have missed this bit, right before going back to the woman in Red to have a second go as did Jesus in the Bible, to help get rid of the cataracts, and I’m hopeless remembering things word for word, but he said something like, take away such and such angels. Now as far as I know, no where in the Bible, I could be wrong does it show angels performing, rather being asked to perform miracles, in the healing sense, it has always been done in Jesus name, or the Holy Spirit or God, not angel or angels take this away, hmm, most interesting, was it a slip up at last, who knows, I’ll continue to monitor such things now though.
The above I’ve just added to my site.
I tried to get a confirmation concerning one of the resurrections Todd was testifying about, the hospital could not confirm it as they had no knowledge that it happened. I don’t know if I had the wrong person on the line, but that is what they told me.
1st June 2008 update:
Thankfully it was repeated yet again on one of God Tv channels on Saturday night 31st May 2008, so from what I can gather he says the following:
‘I pray this girl would receive by the angels in heaven a new heart blah blah blah.’
Now was this a slip up, I’m still convinced that no where in the Bible are angels called upon to do such things, putting the emphasis on them is surely wrong, only God, The Holy Spirit and Jesus name can be mentioned in healing, it’s three in one, not half a dozen in one.
Again the trouble comes from the fact he said by, and not in the name of angels from heaven, so I guess it could be explained lightly away and I’m making a mountain out of a mole hill, going against God’s Spirit like the Pharisees and awaiting my judgment and hell, oops.
However I still maintain something still does not quite 100% sit right with all this, bit like the asking for money during missions week on TV ministry shows. Or the Green miracle Handkerchief. I guess only time will tell, but if it is all nonsense, how many will have been duped.
http://wingswatchman.org/images/jesus%20death%20mask%20p%20hol.pdf
The following makes interesting listening, but is a bit harsh in the way the guy says the things that he does.
Interesting are the pdf files that he has provided:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=51808224915
http://media.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/51808224915.pdf
Here is the video on YouTube where Todd Bentley is talking to the little girls father. Just thought I’d tell you since you said you couldn’t find it.
Thanks Sarah if you mean me, unfortunately the filter I set up blocks youtube and places like myspace.
I’m sure I’d added to another blog where it now seems I can’t find my name, oh well, not to worry.
The whole thing is troubling.
This morning on God TV I hear Wendy Alec now along similar lines, maybe always been that way and I had never really taken it in before.
Again can’t remember word for word, but along the lines of release the angelic and from the spirit realm.
Okay to most of us we can accept this, Jesus said do you not think I could have called on my father and he’d have sent 10,000 angels.
But you leave yourself open to questions if you say things like the spirit realm.
We must be talking of God and the Holy Spirit and Jesus (Yeshua) and angels as being in Heaven, not some other side or spirit realm, otherwise bring on Sabrina the teenage witch kind of talk.
It is difficult, apart of me longs for real life things, I enjoy the Christian films on TBN and so on.
It would have been nice to think this was genuine world wide revival, before Yeshua returns.
However Jesus Himself said when I return will I find faith, and other things said in the Bible seem more to be leading us to the genuine conclusion we shall see lack of faith, falling away, few saved, so on.
Yet here, I mean I’m starting to laugh at it, and then feeling fearful in case it still is genuinely of God, the constant Bam, Bam, Bam, we talking reindeer language, with bam bam or something, oh you know what I mean.
I’m now going to research into what people are saying of God TV.
The thing that gets me, with me, being honest and open and admitting that I am struggling in my faith and not perfect and sinful and so on, is that these people claim that hear from God, Wendy Alec, ‘The Lord just told me….’
Meaning who am I who does not hear from God to question and judge anyone.
However I can only go by what the Bible says and in that certain things do not add up.
I don’t want to follow a God that demands I must give a certain amount a month to get a blessing, or financial return or prayer request in return.
It simply gives the wrong impression, as does the so called miracle spring water and handkerchief and so it goes on.
I think Jesus gave clues, the mark of the beast is not literal but about your soul, He said you can’t serve both God and money.
It seems to me in the last days we are starting to see the two camps, whether in the kingdom of God or outside it.
Those that go after money and use God as their source to get it, or those that do not.
It is not an excuse I’m still a sinner and therefore a hypocrite and have to look at the log in my own eyes first, fair enough, but my sin, lust, does not affect anyone but me and my relationship with God.
What these men, people are doing in affecting, having an affect on others.
I’m not excusing myself and have and do keep trying to fight my desires and lust and weaknesses and so forth and admit them and am ashamed of them and still live in Romans chapter 7, despite knowing the key is in Romans 8.
God can and does use people that are not perfect, heck it’s why we need God, I tell people that I work with that now, sometimes, on a one to one, because the world thinks it’s about doing good, that I could not be like you Lee, because you are good, what crap, it’s nonsense.
This does not give us license to sin, no, but we could not do it, we shall never be perfect, I get that now, thanks to the early days of Revelation Tv that helped me see it, that we are tainted by the blood of Adam and Noah, and Jesus was and had to be born of a virgin, get it, no tainted blood, pure, and so could take the sins away, easy when you read it all.
Since then and my powerful story:
http://www.4hurtingchristians.com/my_powerful_story.html
I now do believe in the virgin birth, Genesis the floods, six literal days creation and Adam and Eve and so on, amen.
The more I watch and see, like last night the more it concerns me, or rather the more now he is starting to expose himself, and I’m praying against this, saying God if this is not of you, please, please bring this to an end now, before more damage is done.
Todd Bentley’s behaviour left a lot to be desired the bits I say when flicking through the channels last night, way he acted, becoming showmanship and his attitude now, bossy and shaking about, acting weird, surely should be starting to send a message.
Fire, fire, fire and bam bam bam, into your homes as well as the crowd there, left me quickly rejecting it, I watch it passively, having had my own experiences of demonic attacks, inviting nothing and turning back over if I have to.
I’m shocked in some ways, but not in others, we were warned about this, look at all the signs, since 1948 and heck if we are not that final generation I’ll eat my hat with salt on it, amen.
God bless, thanks again Sarah, Lee.
Just found this on God TV:
God TV Missions Week is currently on the air. What a TRAVESTY for Christendom! The Alecs are in GREAT ERROR and GREAT DECEPTION! One small example of this was the SCROLLING SIGN across my TV set the week before the $$$ raising event which read:
PREPARE YOUR OFFERINGS BEFORE THE LORD: YOUR BREAKTHROUGH IS HERE! Can you BELIEVE Mike Murdock has been on with Benny Hinn, who by the way, buys addresses and phone numbers from Peter Popoff and Leroy Jenkins. The proof is on my Cell phone! There are calls made to me from all three of these CREEPS! Dr. Rodney Howard-Browne I would dare not speak against for he is a true and faithful servant of God. I thank you for this blog and am grateful to have found it. May God Bless you in the work you are doing.
http://thegovernmentalgoalsofgodtv.wordpress.com/2006/09/23/given-evidence-that-god-tv-have-raised-themselves-up-n-o-t-g-o-d/
Now I just put one of the channels on and he was saying Josh, to this little boy, I see angelic angels around you, and so on.
You know I actually think, God forgive me, this is good, no let me finish.
Think, if it were not for certain things that have happened in life, like 911 and this and that, we would not have a revelation, right.
What this had done is expose for me God TV itself, amen.
Thing is if this is genuine even, it’s so not the kind of God I want to follow and spend eternity with, if that is how He operates, BAM, BAM.
Now he has them all lined up and is bam-ing the light of them, while keep on about switzerland, now on about other European countries after he did this arghhhhh arghhhh and shouting all these countries names out.
The other thing makes me laugh now, is the, ‘What’s happening here.’
WOW, incredible, serious, this guy, the whole platform is just vibrating tonight, bam, bam, bam, this guy is losing it.
Now we are back to just the normal type Todd, asking people what is wrong with them and so on.
What is becoming more apparent is that if this is supposed to not be about Todd and granted were here plenty of Holy Spirit and in Jesus name and so on, we also here a lot of Bam, Bam.
Weird I’m convinced I always seem to get a bit of a headache as well.
Oh hang on, we’ve dropped the Bam now for sisssssss, sissssssss, while pointing two finger at and touching this woman’s head, snake like noises now.
I reckon I ought to do a page on it after all and report, though I work evenings, on what goes on when I can watch it.
Is it just me, or does that laugh get you as well, yikes, ya know, very strange.
Looking at the laptop now with this other guy, and on about all the places that he says want it, the anointing that is.
Trouble is I worry I’d become obsessed if I’m not already, if I decided to track this guy in what he says all the time.
So now he is going to pray for these nations.
Now he is going down the line and everyone is saying where they are from and he is laying his hand on their head sometimes saying Bam.
Oh well, most strange alright.
Okay I’ve done a web page on it now and linked back to here as well, okay guys, can not thank you enough for allowing me the openness to post, not about making me popular or my site, lol, long gone down the drain trust me, not even in the top 1 million, given up on that long ago, what really matters is that we spread the word, that people are made aware that something is not what it seems and not quite right concerning this TV ministries:
http://www.4hurtingchristians.com/is_this_lakeland_florida_revival_with_todd_bentley_on_god_tv_genuine.html
Hey all,
Its great to see that Al horta,Charismania and some others have already written things what I would like to share.
I would like to add one more bible verse. 2 Cor 12 vs 1 / 4.
Paul says he met a man who was caught up to paradise and saw inexpressible things. Things man are not permitted to tell. I heard testimonies of brothers in Christ who were dead for a few moments and had experiences in heaven and their description of those experiences is completely different than Bentleys tales of pillars of fire, chubby Paul and especially…writting a book that teaches people to see heaven anytime they want ? Dear brothers at his website http://www.freshfire.ca you can find such books ,books with content that can only be defined as new age material. I believe the prophetic movement to be a foot of new age in the church.
Now I will like to share some observations about Bentleys behavior.
Once someone steps up the stage to share a testimony, he repeats the word of knowledge he gave.
As a way to reaffirm the crowd he is listening from God.
Second, the people going up the stage to share their testimonies are there because they (felt) something and they believe they are healed. They also believe that if they DONT fall as Todd blows on them (or bang them) they are not acting in faith and therefore are not receiving healing because they are not accepting it. Accept healing for those poor desperate souls means to go up the stage and fall on their back many times not really sure.
Also this falling business if very good to affirm the minister. Why ? Because once you fall down,supposedely by the power of God, then of course if God knows you have a cancer and he decides to show up so mightly to trip you down, he is healing you at the same time. So to fall is an amazing sign to the crowds that a healing took place.
Notice that when someone doesnt fall he always comes back to make sure the person will fall,the pressure is immense to try to stand.
This same pressure is what keeps people from going to doctors and coming back with their certificates,even though they still carry that pain they are afraid of addmitting it and therefore,losing their faith that would get them healed…they doubt it…miss the blessing…What an evil game !
I know that God is full of mercy and I believe many of the genuine healings is Gods answer to believers who call on his name. That power is available all over the world through Jesus. People who receive healing are soaked in an atmosphere of expectation and believing God and his power to heal. Even though there is a lack of the biblical truth of the will of God regarding healing, those crowds create this opening and the level of expectation is therefore bigger. Jesus couldnt perform milagres in capernaum due to the lack of faith in the people. So this atmosphere in Lakeland is for sure, beneficial.
Another interesting fact I would like to share over those revivals is that when someone comes out that bold and that noise, there is something in this prophetic movement that makes us FEAR ! Why? because there is the clear impression that those prophetic ministers are hearing from God and therefore we are critisizing God himself and their annoited one who is somehow,due to more time praying and fasting…hearing things straight from the Throne while we ,sinners need to impart his amazing gift in order to develop our spiritual senses. Thats one of the titles of one of Todds books by the way.
And the presence of God IS THERE…why because he honors his word and people are gathered in his name.
But us also, God fearing people, as well many others who are wachting it and attending those meetings. Can tell there is something else…something that doesnt sink in…Jesus is there but at the same time he aint in all of it.
I see a tremendous difference between this revival and the ones described from Smith Wigglesworth. He would pray with the sick as long as he would received an confirmation from the Lord a healing would take place,then he would tell the person…get up the Lord has healed you and he would pray as long as it was necessary till the healing could be observed and tested….otherwise it would be foolish and a lie to claim it.
Thats much different than this fall and be healed bollocks…it seems truly something made for Tv and entertainment.
It creates the fear of following up because nobody is really sure anyways…and most people are claiming healing because thats what their hearts truly truly desire…so its better to listen to the other new account than the waste time following a possible led by the moment healing.
Jesus is not a liar,it must be a duty to prove these healings.
One other thing,on youtube you will be able to find a lot of material with Todd Bentley(with no tattoos by the way), about the very same things he is preacing now,same punch lines,same revelations,same experiences. Only this time I believe a lot of TV network(and thats due to the recent Christian TV boom also) got encouraged with his boldness and decided to broadcast him live,thats why there is so much attention on him.
Honestly,I just hope those people wont buy his book about prophetic seing heaven and opening to receive Angelical visitation thing. Because it may turn out that if they do, we will later on add this revival we are watching now, as a major attack of new age on Christianity ! Praise God though for Matthew 24 ,They will deceive many….if possible even the people of God.
E.R
E.R.,
Thanks for your comment. You make many good observations. Like you said, I believe that sincere people seeking God are probably feeling SOMETHING at these meetings.
But it does concern me that people (you didn’t say this, but your comment did make me think of it) tend to think that just because a Christian is sincere in his desire for “more of God,” somehow that Christian cannot be harmed or deceived by false ministers.
Sincerity has never been a protection against deception. I’ve known many sincere Mormons, wonderful people, who despite their sincerity are still believing in a different Jesus (satan’s brother) and a different salvation (they pay lip service to Jesus’ dying on the cross, but the reality is that they think participation in Mormon temple rituals is a crucial part of their salvation…and to participate in the rituals, they must have their “temple recommend” cards, which they can only hold if they are tithers and members in good standing…hence, they really believe in a salvation by works, dispensed through the Mormon church). I’ve known many sincere agnostics who honestly proclaim that they “just don’t know,” and are trying to be honorable and moral people anyway. I’ve known sincere Hindus, Buddhists, and nature worshippers.
The bottom line: sincerity is no excuse for ignoring the truth of God’s Word.
In those verses you posted, E.R., we are clearly warned against deception. We need to test the spirits and weigh them against God’s Word. Only those that are consistent with what has been given to us in the Bible should be allowed to touch our lives.
One thing I do not know. Whether this man has fallen away or if he is a truly a false teacher. The bible warns us so many times about it.
Here is something I cut copy from his book. you can read as follow and tell me how you reckon it.
source:http://shop.newdayinternational.org
God wants to bring you into a heavenly experience with Him. He doesn’t want to wait until you get to heaven to show you His supernatural realm where you can: experience the throne room, see the sea of glass like crystal, receive visitations by angels, or get caught in the liquid-honey, glory cloud of His awesome presence.
We serve a supernatural God who takes ordinary men and women and encounters them in extraordinary ways. You too can visit paradise like Paul, or see angels ascending and descending the heavenly ladder as Jacob did, or be taken by the Spirit into visions of God like Elisha. God says, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place . . . ” (Rev. 4:1). How would you like to see the things the Father is doing; not just glimpse, but see into heaven just as Jesus and John did?
In The Reality of the Supernatural World, revivalist Todd Bentley inspires you to develop a “kingdom now mindset” by exploring the keys to tearing open the heavens in your life and ministry, and examining what those supernatural visits and experiences are all about. Learn how the seven Spirits of God can stir up wisdom and revelation in your life. Understand how to release breakthroughs with prophetic decrees and how to birth the prophetic destiny words you’ve received over your life. Activate your spiritual senses. Discover the moving throne of Revelation 4 and 5 and its relevance for today, not just in end times. Study the activity of angels and learn about their place in Scripture and in your life.
It is Todd’s prayer and belief that as you read this book you’ll come under a powerful anointing to walk daily in the reality of the supernatural and be a vessel for miracles, signs and wonders. God wants your life to be a prophetic message that carries supernatural substance. The Reality of the Supernatural World will inspire you to believe in a bigger God than you have ever known . . .
Pass it on ! Question, since nobody is bringing it up, are all Christians ok with this theology ?
Personally, I’m NOT all right with this theology!
If God had wanted us to seek out trips to heaven, He would have addressed this clearly in the Bible. But we never see that. Instead, whenever the Bible references a vision of heaven, it’s always cloaked in terms where the person who had the vision was not allowed to describe what he’d seen. This tells me that God never intended for us to become familiar with the details of heaven until He calls us home.
This is just one of the things that Todd Bentley teaches which ought to alarm any Bible-believing Christian. The more I study this subject, the more clear it seems to me that he advocates what are essentially New Age practices. The whole point of New Age religions is to find oneness with God – in other words, to experience God as having no distance or separation from oneself. Todd Bentley’s familiarity with God, through visions of heaven and frolics with Jesus and angels, is much more in line with the New Age concept of unity with God than it is with anything in the Bible.
I fear this revival goes deeper in us.
From the bottom of my heart I believe that all of us want to experience God and see his signs and wonders on this earth. We all want to taste Gods goodness towards us and feel embraced and loved.
We all want and pray that those hungry for miracles folks who gather to worship the Lord will be set free from diseases and life threatening illness.
The problem is not Todds theology and his signs and wonders, the problem I see is the lack of true men of God unfolding biblical promises and revealing Gods will to the people.
We are missing signs and wonders, he are missing true worshipers such as Smith Wigglesworth and Kathryn Kulman who work through the Holy Spirit upholding sound doctrine and biblical teachings.
We are missing a true genuine revivalist that will shove away entertainment and show business like and will uphold sound doctrine with signs and wonders that will follow.
The lack of that in the body of Christ creates room for false teachers to introduce theologies created by their own minds. It has happened since the Israelites in the desert and their false prophets untill todays tele revivalists.
The lack of sound doctrine signs and wonder leads us to think that must be God,otherwise where are the true men and women of God that will also perform healings in Gods name.
Now is not the time to write emails to God TV and follow up pseudo miracles to reveal to the world that his theology is wrong. Now is not the time to buy his books and
start reading it from pulpits attempting to open the eyes to false theology. I believe that we must by all means expose the deeds of darkness but above all, Pray.
Pray that the Lord of the harvest will raise up an army with true worshipers that will perform signs and wonders, That will drive masses to stadiums and that will encourage the people to taste the goodness of the Lord and uphold holiness,gentleness and Godlike character. Upholding his word and the name of Jesus above every other name.
I just clicked the X and off it went, made a mistake, I’ll try again, probably not as good this time.
I was on about Rory and Wendy, three conclusions:
1: They know about this and are in on it, explains the missions weeks and the way they ask for a sow your money, sorry seed style of approach.
2: They know nothing about this, which in light of Wendy especially always going on about hearing from the Lord you’d think she’d have some idea things are not looking quite right.
3: They now know and realize they made a huge mistake, but don’t want to pull the plug on it having gone this far.
However that is wrong, the latter, number 3 if true should be done, because many will have followed them on the God Channels for years, like me and I used to give to them for a while, and will think, we know them, like a family, and we trust them.
Therefore they think, if they cover it live, must be okay, an endorsement, so it’s cool.
Forgot my other point, no got it, lol, I have, click on my name in this posting, or the above posting where I now have the lakeland web page and scroll down some, see least two experiences, one guy does swear a bit, but anyway, going on about how they actually are not really seeing any miracles and how it’s all about money.
There is something addictive about it, we humans like to be entertained, why, especially men, we watched soccer and rugby and, you know, sports, so on.
Women, some into sport, but might watch a talent show, and so on, over here in the UK that can’t be trusted now, the so called phone in competitions, it all comes down to money, and I’m convinced that is the mark, it’s about what you serve, Does God have you, or does money, so on.
Anyway, like I said, it is addictive, can’t help, switching it on to say see what is happening now, to me like entertainment, showmanship, Bam, then I feel bad, like, no this is not right Lee, not funny, not a comedy show, true.
Also unless it was just me tired, along with what I perceived to be slight head aches like, last night felt weird, I have to often check myself, am I starting to shake my head, or just saying no to something I’ve actually said to myself, lol, most strange and then of course reading where things have happened to people and they say to stay away or cover yourself with the blood of Jesus if you must watch, has me like I did a bit back wanting to delete the darn God channels.
One last thing, me struggling with lust and all, they used to, bit back on one of the channels, have this show, guy in a studio, like the, control room, forget name you call it, leaning say on the side of some setup and on about demonic influences, normally music, and then they would show such clips.
Okay they often did fuzz things out, but you got the idea, flesh was still seen and it actually was arousing me.
YES, exactly, a Christian TV playing something against the world sexual ways and satan and so on, but I felt actually in my case having the opposite effect.
Surely it would have been better to have chosen different things, done things bit different to get the point across.
I can’t recall this being the case on any other channel.
Showing this kind of thing in my opinion made it no different to Channel 4 in the UK, say Sex and the City kind of thing, except this was supposed to be Christian in nature and so no allowing, showing such things going on, even if to get a point across.
I learned that finally on forums, by sinning, confessing to others as the Bible says to, but always being too detailed and open and Christians ripped me to shreds, which often had me running back into the arms of lust again.
I did this to stop the accusing of satan, but found no comfort from so called Christians, most of them anyway, and I wanted to change me status to Messianic Believer or something, and so on.
So we have that and missions week, way they ask for money and not this Lakeland thing, three things, and I’m starting to think, God TV, what the heck are you, are you for real, genuine, what do you stand for, are you deluded, or you know and trying to fool us, or you don’t.
I have seen Rory nodding away as if just naive when mission week is on and Murdock or Munsey are doing their thing, like, well you know what your talking about, because you are the great man of God, we dare not question and so I’m gonna nod along here, just seems crazy to me.
Oh well, who knows, time will tell, but I’m closed to deleting the channels and not watching them again, especially if I continue to find myself flipping on them to see what so called Bentley is up to, so I can say I’m only doing it to expose him, while some truth may be in that, no doubt I’ll be laughing some at the Bam, Bam, and concerned in others and scared in others and worrying in other.
All of which should mount up to common sense to say to me, STOP watching this nonsense now and just keep warning others, amen.
Thanks guys anyway, don’t think me mad, lol, or really bad, because I’m being open again, not been for a while, I believe people more genuine when they are, what I love about the Bible, no cover up David had an affair and had the husband killed off, Moses killed a man, St Paul killed Christians, practically for fun.
We are all vulnerable and open to many things and nothing is beyond our temptation I so realize that now and need God more than ever, amen.
4th June report, repeat of 3rd June show.
I ought to do this every night and report here, lol, anyway seriously, not that I’m not being, you gotta get this now, woooow man, tell ya, if this is of God well, sure very, very, very weird, well far out for me even and I’m truly mad, daft, out there at times, especially at work when I get bored, lol, anyway here goes:
He said Jesus when on about the oil on his hand, in the way that one who is not saved yet would say it, meaning taking the Lord’s name in vain, it certainly seemed like that.
Keeps on about the oil.
Then says the oil on his hand is the Holy Spirit, oh dear, okay then.
Bam-ing the whole crowd again over and over and over again, you get the picture.
woman on platform on the floor and Bentley going Bam, Bam, oh loads of Bams and her doing a crab impression, well skitting about like mad.
Hard to explain, body off floor, but feet and hands on, and moving up and down like that, as if being shocked sort of thing, kind of, anyway, well freaking.
Parents as well this time, Bam-ing them, mother and father, react the same as well.
Finished just now as I’m typing this, so about to turn over to other channel, see what I missed:
Let the angels come I think he just said then, if I caught that right, keeps on about angels more tonight it seems again, though of course we get Jesus thrown in, I’m having to now change the channel, because the more he goes on like he just was, I can not type, serious, making mistakes, feeling light and weird headed.
Definately power there, still question is what power.
Thing is, like someone had said that I read, he is doing this, saying things in God’s name, so one would think only God can and Jesus respond then, right.
When he preaches quietly, he darn well talks sense, seems alright, in fact one could say if he was trying to act and fool people he’d have come on looking like Hinn, suit and all smart, no tattoos and preaching all nicely.
Fact he is not, well, like I said above, and mean, in his favour I guess.
I just still question the behaviour, the attitude when it comes to healing, the constant Bam-Bam-Bam, as if he is thriving on it, enjoying it, loving it, you know.
Sure God wants us to enjoy what we do, but, still keep saying and go on saying it, just does not seem quite right.
One last thing I heard the Lord, the Lord just said to me, are very common themes with these people, I say that like I’m against this, and belong to some denomination, nothing further from the truth, I’m non-denom and belong to no one nor nothing, but God, amen.
I speak in tongues and have no problem with miracles and healing, amen, bring it on, but I have never ever seen it done quite like this, when watching for a quick moment of Hinn or David Hathaway or the 700 club.
This is the only one I have seen do this kind of thing in this sort of way.
Oh yeah not read it as of yet, only bit of it at the start, but here is another link I’ve now found:
http://www.jacobswellspokane.com/Site/Words/Entries/2008/5/26_Lakeland_FL_Revival:Navigation_help_for_discernment_files/Fl%20Revival%20June%202008.pdf
God bless, Lee.
From that last link I gave, this sums it all up I think, amen:
George Santayana said those who do not study history
are destined to repeat it. The events in Lakeland are not new
in a qualitative way. The core values are the same as they’ve
been for decades. Some of what is occurring is God, some is
the flesh, and some is the devil. That’s the way it always is,
and it’s ok. We just have to exercise discernment. What is
not ok is to attribute unique significance to the manifestation
of power.
God is big enough, good enough, and gracious enough to
be simultaneously active on multiple levels. Regarding
Lakeland, I believe God is doing wonderful things for individuals,
and at the same time giving the Pentecostal/
Charismatic branch of the church, another opportunity to
come to grips with itself and its flawed and corrupt value
systems and practices.
Those of us over 40 have been this way before and the
end is always a train wreck . . . William Branham . . . Evan
Roberts . . . John Alexander Dowie . . . Tertullian . . . Edward
Irving . . . and many others still living.
Someone once told me that the most risky thing God
could do for the Church is bless it with His manifest power. I
understand what he was driving at. There’s only one foundation
for life and ministry: Christ and Him crucified. Any
ministry that:
• makes signs and wonders the center piece
• makes the working of wonders the foundation of
their existence, their appeal, their draw
• pursues manifestations, signs, and wonders as a
core value system
will end in disaster and destroy the lives of those who have
associated with them intentionally or ignorance. I don’t say
this in a prescribing failure sort of way. My desire is that
repentance would occur and adjustment and alignment to
Christ in thought and practice would realize all the benefits
of the present realities of His kingdom while avoiding the
painful pitfalls. The Lord’s testimony and the lives of people
are at stake. Without deep change in value systems and
methods, disaster and carnage are as inevitable as showers in
April.
THE SWORD AND TROWEL
© 2008 Dr. Stephen R. Crosby
Hey, Lee –
It’d be great if you give us a report of what you watch nightly. I don’t have the time to watch all the broadcasts on GodTV.
And frankly, the ones I have watched have made me so troubled in my spirit (to borrow a useful Charismatic phrase) that I really don’t WANT to watch them.
Thanks for your kind words, I often expect attack, because I go on alot.
This morning I heard Dr Charles Stanley from intouch preaching on the flame and I knew it was so me:
http://www.intouch.org/site/c.dhKHIXPKIuE/b.3986735/k.B68/When_Your_Fire_Goes_Out__Sermon_Outline.htm
Basically this means I am not really qualified, not right with God, bit like preaching against something, then going off and secretly doing that, or something similar for which you are so against in public.
My standing with God has been slipping since 2005.
That should be my main priority really and instead, well as you can see here.
I’m not saying that what I’ve said is not genuine, true, but will always be more based on my feelings and my spirit and not that of God’s, so I know not 100%, I’m like a boat without a sail, drifting on the sea, you know.
Also I was wrong, I’m as bad as Bentley or anyone, because my lust, weakness does affect others, how so you say, I can sin, guilt, and be depressed and down and so moody and take that in work.
Suddenly I’m quiet and not as daft and silly and bubbly as I normally on, so my attitude is not good and not giving a good impression, amen.
So while, and only you can, and I’m not sure that’s what I’m asking, to delete all the postings I’ve made, I have to decline and I have to also stop watching this.
I still feel deep down and have always, that I can’t turn a blind eye.
Right now as I type this, I’m stuck, troubled, do I delete the Lakeland web page I did and others things I’ve said, only me to run my site and it does a lot of good, abortion and creation and so much more, people find through google.
That is what satan wants, has tried for a while, going after my mind, get me to give up, quit, close 4hurtingchristians.com down.
I still maintain I love revealing truth, but my heart is cold, stone, I have no friends, outside of work in real life, all my online ventures, radio, chat room, whatever it is, fails and I fall out with everyone, so to speak.
Sure there is no one else to run the site, and I promised and broken so many over the last few years, I’d never give up my this site, devoted to God since 2003 odd.
((((((((((((((( charismania)))))))))))))).
I hope you don’t mind the hug, some do even and it’s only an online bracket thing,
.
All I want deep down and see little evidence of it in todays world is just that, hug, love, you know.
But what I turn to, whether online on on satellite for my comfort I know gives me none, but turmoil.
As for Bentley and so many others, regardless what I personally feel, and even if it is right, I have to finally say, look I’m still dying spiritually, how my flame has not completely gone out, only God knows and sustains.
I have to start looking at myself and say can they all be wrong, surely it has to be me, something in me, you know.
This has to be different what I say here from the normal, past, woe is me, pity party, this has to be, you know a cry for help, but saying for once, no one, no nice female, woman I used to look for, for years who is into God, and can come along and sort me out will work.
Only me, my return to God and total surrender can abate the fear and bad thoughts and set me free and give me peace again.
Trouble is, can I do it, it’s like I’ve lost my salt and Jesus said you don’t get it back again.
Finally, Mr Stanley like some, but not all, I’ve of the opposite opinion if anything, believes that you have not lost your salvation.
In that case I could say why worry then, but I’m losing rewards, I’ll make heaven alright, but probably be down the bottom, living in some tent, away from God, used to think, that’s okay so long as I don’t go to hell.
My focus on end times, and all the bad things and only reading Revelation up to chapter 17 tops.
Thanks and good luck my friend.
However I think the most important thing, then we can if led by God, do this, like I said Paul had a commission and right, I really don’t, to act off my own bat, even if I’m right, it is for God to deal with, right, not me.
God bless you truly and pray hard for me, thanks one last time for allowing me anyway to express my feelings on the matter to help make people aware that, you know we should just be careful in life, look to God only and not some man, or event, or whatever is going on in the world.
Kind regards, Lee.
Well our world is shaking now, I believe God opened my eyes for the outpouring and Todd Bentley.
First I like it so the worship and the call to God!!
But if I read storys and pray for it, its hurt that it is wrong!!
And I know many are the same, my faforite was always Benny Hinn but I know now other things.and I took a sstep away from him!
We must back to the truth the pure word of God .
We must go back to the Cross, and bring the love of Jesus.
Without all the extreme things.
God forgive us.
And lets us speak the truth only the truth so that people are real saved.
That our hearts be open for the real voice of God!
s.sallbersberg,
Excellent words! So true.
The real Gospel of Jesus – the real Good News – is not that we will necessarily benefit financially in the here and the now…or even that we can automatically “claim” our healing for this earth. Too many wonderful dedicated Christians do NOT get healed (and end up dying), even when they believe this stuff and try with all their might to “activate their faith.”
Even many of the faith healers themselves eventually were overcome by physical ailments and passed away at rather young ages (I’m thinking of Kathryn Kuhlman, for instance, who died from an enlarged heart when she was barely in her 60s).
Plus, what does it say about our faith and the quality of our salvation, if we’re so desperate to cling to this world (by hanging onto our lives on this earth) and the things of this world?
I can sure understand the allure of the Benny Hinns and Todd Bentleys of the world. I used to be a Benny Hinn fan myself. But the reality of God’s truth – as revealed in the Bible – is so much bigger and better than what these guys are proclaiming it to be.
Because of Jesus’ finished work on the cross, we can be right with God for all eternity and spend eternity with Him, despite our sinfulness. Now THAT is some good news!
I’m loving all of your comments here, thank you to God for letting you all see the error involved and the deceptive ways of these men who (I think) genuinely believe they are right.
I live on the doorstep of Dudley UK were the pastor has come back from Florida and is currently ‘passing’ on this error, it saddens my heart to see it.
God help us and them.
Keep up the good work and shout it from the Chimney tops.
Its only the Grace of God that has kept us from falling for this demonstrative deception, amen.
P.S
I feel for you Lee and look back at my past and can relate to so much of what you have said.
Thanks for your honesty, you are encouraging even when you think your not.
Pete,
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site. I’m with you, in that I don’t understand why I feel and see the unbiblical errors of this “revival” so deeply, while others think it’s perfectly wonderful. I thank God every day for His watchful care!
Blessings!
Thanks for the welcome charismania
I feel it deeply too, nothing but grief and disappointment when people treat this deception so lightly. I guess we should feel this way, its our brothers and sisters that are being decieved.
I found this site quite by accident, but am so pleased I did.
Taken from my site:
Genesis Tv interviews two pastors.
Oh goodie I thought last night (Tuesday the 10th June 2008) at last it sounds like Gordon on Genesis TV, sister of Revelation TV, is going to talk about the Lakeland thingy, and yep, I was right.
The two pastors of churches who had been said it was a move of God and apart from the tattoos, seemed to be pretty darn sure about the event and teachings, although one did not agree with the morning teaching on their explanation of Revelation chapter 5, the other said he found when he was in the morning one’s it was alright.
However most of the emails and later the callers were I’d say against it and one woman, sounded elderly in years, said Bentley was evil, strong stuff.
It seems from this discussion and if so worth clarifying here that Bentley’s tattoos done since being a Christian were more Godly in nation.
My question though was, well why not get rid of the other one’s then, as I’m aware, one can now have them removed, or covered up, so on.
Gordon later said and the pastors agreed that it seemed those that had been were of the opinion it was of God and those that had not were the callers and emailers who were not of that opinion.
Gordon did not get around to or read out my mail, which if I recall mentioned the fact that I knew of two of the internet (see above) who had been and did not believe it genuine either, go figure.
No one wants to be skirting close to commiting the unforgivable sin and saying that the work of the Holy Spirit is really satan.
However I still personally feel there are questions to be answered.
In the end it seemed it was being turned into, by the pastors and those few who did support, rang up, emailed, that we were judging the outside appearance.
To which I thought was nonsense.
Despite what the Bible says on tattoos and eating pork and keeping the sabbath and this and that, all done away with because Jesus kept all that, hence it is finished on the cross, otherwise it is not by grace and faith, it is of out works, if we must be saved by being baptised, doing this, doing that, so on.
So even if we take their point, okay, I can over look the tattoos, who cares, ex-prisoners I’m sure being used by God genuinely, despite Gordon being stronger than the pastors on this and mentioning one email saying they are a demonic gateway, so to speak, but the thing is what is inside then.
Well we have sometimes heard, I have myself, the boy called Josh and so on, the emphasis being on angels and we have the behaviour, constant head shaking and ha ha ha ha, arghhhhhhhhhh, arghhhhhhhhhhhh, does this, that sounds like a sane man of God.
If Jesus showed up and acted like that would we feel He was genuinely of God and follow after Him.
There remains for me, and heck I’m so not perfect and have no right to comment really on anything, accept that I hate if I see anything that I feel might be wrong to mislead others, and them risk everything by being disceived. Anyway, yeah there remains for me, too many questions still to be answered.
Could it be that as the pastors said, and I’ve read and heard before that people just get carried away.
What of the caller who said she saw Bentley asking this woman things, telling her this and that and twice it was wrong and he waved her away and dismissed her. If that is true, and along those lines this certainly throws things into major doubt. And another man who said it was blasphemy, something about God whispering in his ear about is it okay to, forget now, do something. I think he meant God was asking him, rather than as we should always ask God if it is alright to do something.
Can Bentley just be being disceived himself, who knows. What of the other people’s involvements, and other things not seen on camera and those things that are. Why is it God has to use Bentley and in this way, mind you could be argued, about the Dudley event in the UK and this and that and great men of the past being used by God and the Prophets and Jesus only himself, and so on.
But what I mean is, it’s almost like the message that goes out is come and get some, spend all you have to come to this event and get what I’m going to impart to you. Or the very least, watch it on ustream and God TV and get it when I say so.
Can’t we know longer, each already blessed with the Holy Spirt anyway at time of conversion, call upon God ourselves, can’t we do thing in our own countries and cities.
The pastors remained convinced and cited cases they know of, healings and so on, not just over there, but here in the UK and of people being saved because of it and on fire for Jesus now.
So, wow, and okay, and God forgive me, and I repent and I’m in dread now springs to mind, and fear and so on.
But, then again, I keep thinking of the last days, what is meant to happen and something in my spirit, like with a few that rang up, likewise clearly felt, something was not right.
Gordon, the show rather got flack for not having someone on with the opposite few, Gordon said he invited two people who had been.
At the end of the day, who knows, are we any clearer to knowing and heck does it matter, if it is of God it will survive, if not it will die out.
One thing the pastors did say to which was pleasing is that it is not a revival, but an outpouring, too early to say yet, so on.
I guess only time will tell, however for me, I’ve deleted from my satellite box the God TV channels and now refuse to have the Wonderful – Don Stewart, God TV – lakeland and asking for money way. Daystar and INI and so on. I have kept TBN, like their films, but would not give or watch their telephons either. I know longer support Revelation Tv either, sadly as they show Don Stewart as well.
Welcome to the end times springs to mind, earthquakes, yep, floods, hurricanes and tornadoes and being being misled and wars and this and that, famines and high oil prices and riots and ethnic conflicts and surely all Jesus talked about that would happen since Israel was a blooming flower again (1948) and 1967 clearly show once again how accurate and 100% true the Bible is with the predictions.
Expect things to get worse much worse hence Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
response to #18 somersetboy,
I would like to call you to your own “exaggeration” which falls right in line with what has been being discussed here concerning the irresponsible and quite sensational claims surrounding such revivals and their leaders.
You said:
“isn’t Acts riddled with angelic appearances?”
Sadly, you have done exactly what has been described above and either only “assumed” this, or merely repeated what some one else has claimed by saying this without researching the claim yourself before sharing it. Had you done the research, you wouldn’t have come to that conclusion.
The truth is, that over the entire 28 years (approximately) of recorded history in the book of Acts, there are only 5 recorded visitations from angels.
In Acts 5:19, a high priest of the Sadducees had the Apostles put into Prison and an angel came at night and opened the prison doors and led them them out.
In Acts 8:26 The angel of the Lord spoke to Phillip telling him to go to a desert region of Gaza. And even after that, it is recorded in 8:29 that the Lord continued to speak to him but directly through the Spirit instead. So, God had spoken to Him audibly “outwardly” through the angel of the Lord, and then continued to guide him “inwardly” by speaking to him through the Holy Spirit. And right there lies a lesson in of itself to this whole subject! See I John 2:27
In Acts 10:3,7, & 22, & 11:13 we have the record of an angel appearing to Cornelius in a vision with specific instructions for Peter.
In Acts 12:7-11, 15 & 23 we have the record of an angel appearing to Peter in prison telling him to strip and follow him out of the prison. But even Peter in 12:9 wasn’t sure if the angel had actually physically appeared to him or if he had only saw the angel releasing him from prison in a vision.
In Acts 27:23 an angel physically appears to Paul when he was at sea many days in peril without apparent hope of surviving, and the angel tells him that no one on the ship will die.
To summarize that is only:
3 physical angelic visitations,
1 angelic visitation in a vision or dream,
1 angelic visitation that was only audible.
That is only ONE visitation approximately every 5.6 years! Now (to play my own advocate), there are in fact other instances in OTHER books of the New Testament that refer to angelic visitations DURING that time period, but they are not recorded in the book of Acts, which is what you have claimed in an attempt to position yourself as some sort of Biblical authority on the subject. However, the fact is that all of the recorded angelic visitations during that time period do not even add up to 12 over those 28 years, which would at least be on average, one every other year.
The point simply being, the New Testament records of that time frame (specifically the book of Acts, as you claim) are in fact NOT riddled with angelic visitations at all! Who is it that has convinced you otherwise? It definitely was not the scriptures themselves. Also, we seem to forget how much (physical) time can actually pass between chapters in the Bible and often get this inaccurate picture of the early church moving non stop with miraculous manifestations through out in its entire history. But when we read in context (answering the questions of who, what, where, why, when, and how) we get a much different picture that consists more of rare miracles occurring quite distant from each other and only a few short “seasons” where it seemed to be more of a regular or daily occurrence.
And as far as angelic visitations are concerned, they were (as evidenced) in fact quite rare as well as those being raised from the dead. Also, if you look at those instances and ask yourself WHY God intervened with angelic visitation at that time, you will get an even greater revelation on the whole subject.
But yet, many of the modern day self proclaimed apostles and prophets are having these type of experiences by the hundreds. And some, like Bob Jones (very key person in the prophetic training of Todd Bently) who started having his experiences as a patient in a mental institution, claim to have had thousands of them. If not by your discernment, then at least by “natural” reasoning, this should give ANY believer serious doubts about such claims. I don’t doubt that he may in fact have such frequent angelic visitations, spiritual experiences, etc. But in light of his tremendously horrible prophetic accuracy rate, sexual misconduct with women through the “application” of his gifts, and EXTREME frequency of visitations, it is obvious to me who the author of such things is.
I would encourage you to do you be more “Berean” without trying to explain away their efforts so easily when Paul himself said that they were even more honorable than the Thessalonians (a very spiritually mature people). And when you research something, do it with a willingness to let the scripture prove you (and anyone you glean from) to in fact be wrong, with a willingness to repent and grow from the process.
I pray you receive this and grow from it, It is not an effort to discredit or attack you. Nor is it an attack against the miraculous or angelic visitations. But rather a call for discernment towards responsible, accurate, and non exaggerated reporting when it does occur in our midst. And more over,it is an example of how easily a God fearing, scripture loving, believer can be deceived by being to “eager to believe that something is true”.
Danyael
ratintheriver@juno.com
Danyael,
Excellent post! Thanks so much for doing the Scriptural legwork that I’ve been meaning to do.
Your careful survey of the true number of angelic visitations in the book of Acts is very helpful and is what I was alluding to earlier. Lots of people somehow get this idea that the Christian life is supposed to be nonstop supernatural experiences. It’s not…at least, NOT the kind of “supernatural experiences” that Todd & Co seem to enjoy on a daily basis.
Rather, within the New Testament, we have so many commands to love others and to exhibit the fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, and self-control.
I’d challenge the promoters of Todd Bentley-style “supernatural Christian living” to find ONE INSTANCE in the New Testament where we are SPECIFICALLY INSTRUCTED to seek supernatural experiences. Show me where it says that we are supposed to be seeking visions of the third heaven, “live” conversations with God and/or Jesus, and angelic visitations.
This cannot be done, because there IS NO SUCH INSTRUCTION IN SCRIPTURE.
When the whole “Modern Prophetic” gang gets the hang of holy living and truly starts to exhibit gentleness, goodness, and the like, and when they have all the stuff down pat that we HAVE been commanded by Scripture to seek, then maybe they can start promoting their gold dust manifestations. Until then – they really ought to quit teaching that stuff. To teach that we ought to be actively seeking their brand of the supernatural is simply not biblical.
Danyael, are you from SOmerset in England?
BTW enjoyed your post
oops sorry Danyael, just noticed you were referencing someone else by the name of ’somerset boy’
Charismania,
Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. As far as any needed scriptural legwork, I can offer myself to you as a resource as someone who has the time to do accurate and non bias research towards any biblical questions or scripture correlating needs that may arise on the blog in future which I can submit privately or publicly for your review. That is, if it would help any of your efforts here?
Self control is a fruit of the Spirit??? Imagine that!
As someone who has spent several weeks at the Brownsville revival and school of ministry, been to the Toronto Blessing, logged hundreds of hours in the prayer room at KC (being a former resident of KC) and even ministered at their conferences, and limitless other “hot” spots of renewal, I can honestly say I’ve never seen a manifestation of Holy Spirit “self control”! In fact it is usually anything but the above listed fruits. You will know them by their fruits???
Oh, they have a list of manifestations that are claimed to be Holy Spirit inspired. The problem is that you can’t find ANY such things in scripture. Even at the outpouring of Pentecost in Acts 2 where the public thought those on whom the Holy Spirit fell were drunk, didn’t continue that way or have continued manifestations like that during the early church. It is the ONE and ONLY instance in scripture where we see any such thing. There was also a great and mighty rushing wind, cloven tongues of fire, etc. And the FRUIT of all of that was Peter standing up in PUBLIC and preaching Christ to the lost. And calling them to repent and be baptized right after they had received it! And 3,000 people were saved that very same day! That is revival! God’s outpouring had immediate effects on the unsaved community around the believers on whom it fell. It wasn’t to spoil His bride with entertainment, promises of riches, and fun spiritual experiences. It was to equip her to go OUT and do the work of the ministry.
But there IS a horrifyingly resemblance in the manifestations of the modern prophetic movement with those of the new age practice of Kundalini. I would encourage anyone who believes these manifestations are of God to google Kundalini, or even just research it on YOUTUBE.
But, I must also confess that I also have fallen victim to all of these deceptions in the past and even experienced many of these strange manifestations. But through a willingness to be wrong and letting the scriptures reign as truth, and through repentance I found deliverance. And I know others can as well. There is hope for others in spite of the apparent “brick wall” of contention often met by confronting them.
It is such a deceitful trap! And at least for me, I think I can trace its beginning back to “wanting” it all to be true so bad that it led me to begin justifying the whole thing, one experience at a time. The physical manifestations seemed so real that I convinced myself that it must mean they were from God and couldn’t possibly be from the devil. After all I was a Christian and wouldn’t God protect me from such deception? How could a Spirit filled Christian experience something supernatural that wasn’t from the Lord? See Jesus’ prophetic warning in Matthew 24:24 or Paul’s prophetic warning in II Thessalonians 2:9-12. Can anyone deny that these scriptures will be fulfilled in the end times?
Even now, as a much more discerned believer I felt the allusive “tug” to try and find justification for what is happening in Lakeland as being legitimate revival as I began to evaluate it before the Lord and through scripture study for about the first month or so after it began! For some strange reason, you just “want” it to be real. But thanks be to God for His Word! A anchor for the soul keeping it tethered to truth and open eyed to deception!
Deep down in us somewhere I believe there is a cry for true revival in every believer which has actually been placed there by God Himself. But without discernment and not heeding the warnings of scripture that are so plainly read and understood directing how we are to embrace spiritual experiences, that God placed drive for revival in us can be used against us by the devil to lead us to a counterfeit version.
I believe that drive has been placed in us to fulfill the great commission and lure us away from complacency and luke warmness (me and my little opinion- not scriptural though). However, this I know to be true. That once we partake of a counterfeit, something like an addiction starts to take over because it doesn’t satisfy what our spirits are REALLY hungry and thirsty for. And the more we get of it, the more we need it. Meetings tend to become more like opportunities for us to get our “fix” rather than gatherings to bring glory to God, worship Him, and get equipped for the work of the ministry. Eventually, most would admit (if they did some HONEST inventory) that their hunger for the word has not increased, but on the contrary has taken on new challenges to just get in it at all. The desire for prayer almost vanishes entirely unless it is wrapped in manifestations. And our “thanksgiving” and worship of the Lord becomes unfocused on what He did for us through the cross and gets limited to mostly testimonies of the miraculous.
All of these great new anointings, ministries, prophecies, spiritual gifts, and different types of encouragement have little if any impact outside the four walls of where the “revival” is taking place, or where it was carried to. And our new found inspiration for evangelism is rarely more than a great zeal to invite others to the revival so they “can come get some”!
Any amount of time studying the scriptures in context concerning these subjects reaps an immediate harvest of truth and expels so much of the deception. But many have already fallen out of love with the truth (as prophesied). And an evil generation seeks a sign! And on and on go the warnings in scripture that we have the “capacity” to be deceived as believers in all these areas. Yet, but for a small few, the church marches on without repentance and willful ignorance of recent past mistakes and blind allegiance to proven false apostles and prophets.
Thank God for blogs like this where the watchmen can sound the alarms, the faithful can rejoice in the truth, and maybe some “as if snatched out of the fire” can be saved.
Danyael
Let me start with saying I am not anti-lakeland. I am a charismatic Christian who has been through this many times over the past 15 years. I have yet to get a response to my request for documented evidence of even one dead man raised from the dead as claimed. I am open to believing the same evidence that Jesus clearly provided to anything he did.
Thanks for your post. I have felt convicted to share the truth in this matter, having been involved with many of the “revival” antics over the past 15 years. Countless people who I know who attended also are today empty and not healed. To make matters worse, the so-called “enlightened” ones spew guilt on those who do not believe this show, blaming it on our lack of faith.
After posting to numerous blogs which spew this nonsense (in a kind, scriptual manner), my comments are immediately removed and I am blocked from commenting. How is that for allowing discussion of something they say is of God? Yet any dissent is immediately removed to keep their believers in the dark. Can you say cult?
God save us.
Danyael, your post #73 was excellent, as usual. I very likely will take you up on your offer to do Scriptural research in the future. I’m enough of a student of the Bible to where I feel I can speak with confidence about certain matters, but I can’t always regurgitate chapter and verse when necessary. Then I get lazy or too distracted and don’t follow through.
I find it interesting that you – like I do – think that these manifestations are strikingly similar to Kundalini. I remember the first time I saw someone make that observation, I was utterly appalled and disgusted and IMMEDIATELY shut down. I wouldn’t even entertain the thought.
But after our disillusionment with the “Word of Faith” movement and “Charismania” in general, I kept coming back to the FEELINGS, what I’d experienced during those times in the prayer line. Certainly there was some sort of power at work when we’d all fall down. I was starting to suspect that at least a large portion of the time, it almost could not have been GOD’S power (seeing as how He won’t contradict His written Word, and our pastor was definitely saying things that were contradictory to the Bible). That’s when I remembered the descriptions of the similarities between Kundalini and “falling out under the power,” and I began to research it out again.
I’m still not willing to say that it was ALL a product of manipulative non-Holy-Spirit forces. And it’s not like I think there are a bunch of Christian ministers who have decided to deliberately seek out mystical Hindu practices. I believe they stumble upon Kundalini principles, or – more likely – receive them through an impartation from another practitioner. I know our former pastor, just like Todd Bentley, was mentored by some of the “big name” ministries when he was first starting out. I believe that he saw what worked and intuitively picked up on it.
But even though it likely is sort of “accidental,” and even though these Christian practitioners of “falling out” are sincere, that does not make it right, or any less manipulative than it can often become.
Moreover, I think it runs the high risk of dishonoring the Lord and portraying Him to be a liar or a fake. If you tell someone that they’re “gonna feel the power of God strike you from the crown of your head to the soles of your feet,” and you insinuate that this feeling – God, supposedly – is going to heal them, and then it does not happen, what is the person left thinking about God?
I also think that a lot of Charismatics are under a mistaken notion that the Christian life happens mostly because of these feelings.
Recently, I was poking around on youtube, and I stumbled across a series of videos recently released by our former church’s music department. The pastor’s son (an excellent pianist but a horrifically tone-deaf singer) put out a new CD this past spring, and the church obviously poured a bunch of money into producing some pretty professional looking DVDs of the key songs. I’m digressing into a bit of cynicism here, but I couldn’t help but wonder, as I watched the choir and backup singers, many of whom are amazingly talented, if the pastor’s son was giving any of these singers and musicians a cut of the money he raked in from selling his CD and DVD. I highly doubt it!
Yet without those singers and musicians, people would be forced to listen to the pastor’s son sing alone, and he’d be a mere shadow of what he’s able to think he is as he hides behind those who can actually sing.
(Whoops…I digress into some cynicism…but I do find it amazingly frustrating that the next generation of the pastor’s family is so incredibly insensitive and full of themselves, and are so free to be such users of people…and yet have such overblown opinions of themselves… )
Anyway, I bring up those youtube videos because one of them was a new song written by the pastor’s son (of course) which focused on “a moment in time.”
It was actually a very pretty song, one that tugged at my heartstrings as I listened to the emotive harmonies, the whispered, worshipful “hallelujahs” in the background. And a part of it was quite nice, singing about a moment in the Lord’s presence, and how wonderful this could be.
The majority of the pastor’s son’s songs, in fact, were along those same lines, always celebrating God’s presence…with the insinuation being, of course, that it could essentially only be found within the four walls of our former church. I’ve been struck by this observation before, but as I listened to this new song, pretty though it was, it yet again occurred to me that the people at our old church really believed that “receiving a touch from God” was what it was all about. Have a problem? Get the pastor to lay hands on you. Need a breakthrough? Hope and pray that the pastor will give you a prophetic word. Need to make progress in your Christian life? Well, the specifics of Godly character were rarely discussed – not even simple things, like being nice to one another in the church parking lot, instead of cutting people off and practically giving them the finger as you exited after the service. But the assumption was that “being in God’s presence” – which was defined as falling down on the ground, weeping before the Lord, praying in church – was what was needed to make one holy. If you wanted to be a successful Christian, you needed to be where God’s presence was.
Of course, there’s a nugget of truth buried in there somewhere. But it only takes “a little leaven” to ruin the whole thing, right? People never seemed to be taught that the keys to Christian living were right there in their hands – the Bible, and the indwelling Holy Spirit Who already resides in them as believers. People were never taught that they should look to the Holy Spirit to help them be more honest (we met more pathological liars at our former church than I’d met in my entire lifetime prior to becoming members). People were never taught that sometimes it’s HARD to do the right thing. People were never taught that sometimes, God calls us to sacrifice certain things.
Instead, people were constantly fed this notion that the Christian life is about maintaining a feeling, the same high that one gets as one lies on the ground after the pastor touches one.
So, the pastor’s son’s new song is pretty good at summing up what the Christian faith is at our former church – it really is about “moments in time,” where one “feels” God’s presence…with the insinuation being that it happens at church, through the pastor or his appointed guest speakers.
I think more than a bit of that mentality is at work in the Lakeland meetings, too. “Come and get some” means what? What, exactly, is going to be the fruit produced by “some” of whatever “it” is? I guess time will tell…how many of those people will shake and tremble and twitch and roll, “drunk,” back home, and actually exhibit more Christ-like character?
I hope it’s all of them, but from our own experience, I’d be surprised if it were very many at all. I knew far too many people who did lots of “carpet time” at our old church, only to get up and go and lie and cheat and just be generally wacky flakes the rest of the 167 hours left in the week.
Charismania,
I completely understand what you mean about the “feelings” and not being willing to attribute ALL past experiences and such things as being the work of the devil and/or the flesh. I see in scripture that there is a great danger in making such claims. When Jesus cast out a demon in Matthew 12 in front of the Pharisees, they said He did it by the power of the devil. Jesus went on to explain that attributing that power of God to devil was blasphemy of the Holy Ghost and would not be forgiven in this life or the life to come. That is about about as serious of a warning as you can get, and especially from our Lord Himself.
So, that definitely is a border line that we can not cross while using discernment, testing the spirits, etc. And there are other examples that Jesus used while speaking in parables about the kingdom of God that need our attention while we are dealing with these subjects. Like the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew 13:24-36, where a man sowed good seed in his field but while he slept the enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat. Then the servants of the household came and asked the man if they should go weed out the tares, and the he said no because that risked the danger of uprooting the wheat if they did. And then he said that they should let them grow together until the harvest and then he would command his reapers to separate the two. And then they would gather the wheat into his barn and take and burn the tares.
So there are things we shouldn’t say, and things that we shouldn’t do in spite of the enemy’s seed having been so clearly sown into the mix. Some things God will handle Himself at harvest time. But we individually have the responsibility to not be deceived in these areas of the supernatural manifesting in the midst of the church and to warn/rebuke/teach other believers who don’t see those deceptions for themselves. Which is, I believe, the true intention behind blogs like this one. But it I feel (me and my little opinion) that our efforts shouldn’t be a witch hunt that chases the devil’s tail to point out every direction that it wags. But rather a shinning of the light of the truth of scripture which will expose and remove the darkness all by itself.
In a quick word search I immediately found 21 passages in the New Testament in which we are commanded/warned to not be deceived. To me, that says that we as even mature believers HAVE the capacity in us to be deceived! But, you are right; I didn’t learn that from anywhere or anyone in the charismatic/prophetic movement. What is interesting, maybe even ironic, is that the teachings of those movements seem to be mostly based around REceiving without any attention to not being DEceived!
And you are right also about the lack of attention towards the personal conduct of the believer being taught. Yet the New Testament, through all of its writers seem to have spent more time on those issues than any other subject. What ever happened to being imitators of Christ? I don’t ever recall Jesus acting like an out of control drunk, being completely consumed by selfish and self gratifying personal spiritual experiences.
And for me personally, if I hear one more “for such a time as this” prophecy, I think I’ll puke! I’ve been hearing that for fifteen years and have yet to see anything come out of it. Sorry, a little bit of emotion and flesh riding up onto my sleeve there! But, I think most would agree that hearing things like that and watching the beloved saints of God buying into it has become very frustrating and painful to watch. There is nothing in scripture about how that in some specific time that the church’s mission or the role of believers towards the great commission will take on any changes. The gospel is, always has been, and always will be “Christ and Him crucified”. That is our message and our hope; and our ministry efforts, directions for living, and all such things flow out from that foundational truth.
Here is a link to VERY enlightening article about what happened in a church were they had “brought back” the “anointing” from the Brownsville revival and were experiencing all the s”stuff” and God told the pastor to “take away the catchers”. I would encourage everyone on this blog to take the time to read it if you haven’t come across it already.
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-2kpOjNE7c7VPOA5.CiHz3W6Lng–?cq=1&p=915
Danyael
I know off topic sort of, but talking of last days, found a link on another site I’m listening to, watching now and well, very, very interesting, even I’m learning more, spread the word:
mms://media1.winworld.cc/voe/mannafest342_new.wmv