I initially put part of this up as a comment, but I thought it would also make a good post on its own:
Here are some things I can’t help but wonder about…
I don’t understand why comparing an evangelist’s teachings to what the Bible says is “having a religious spirit.”
Or why pragmatism – “Todd Bentley’s ways work, people are getting healed, people are getting delivered” – is more important than searching the Scriptures for what God says. Why is apparent success viewed as God’s stamp of approval? Aren’t there plenty of false religions with billions of adherents throughout the world that would be considered successful?
Or why “signs and wonders” are always assumed to be from God, just because they’re happening in a Christian setting.
Or why people assume that when someone uses the name of Jesus, they actually are referring to the historical Jesus of the Bible.
Or why the people who respond to Todd’s rambling yet vague “altar calls,” during which he invites people to “accept Jesus” – with barely a mention of man’s sinful condition, why we need a Savior in the first place, or how we need to repent and turn from our wickedness - are considered “conversions” and therefore further proof of the supposed “good fruit” of this “outpouring.”
Or why the statement, “I watched Todd on GodTV and I felt God’s presence in the broadcast” can be used as proof that everything is A-OK, and yet my statement of, “When I watch him teach, my spirit tells me that he is contradicting God’s Word” cannot be used as proof. (If you’re going to say that our FEELINGS can be used as validation, then why are my feelings not as valid as yours?)
Or why the pro-Todd folks do not seem in the least concerned about Jesus’ warnings regarding false teachers. After all, Jesus gave those instructions initially to His DISCIPLES. These were the guys who had actually SEEN Him in person…and would, shortly after that discourse, SEE Him die, and then, 3 days later, would SEE Him as the risen Savior (hallelujah, by the way!). If deception were so obvious, would Jesus have found it necessary to warn His disciples? Do we somehow believe that we are above them in our ability to detect false teachers?
EDITED TO ADD: Why is there more focus upon people who were ”dead” for 45 minutes (or kept alive on life support) being “raised from the dead” than there is on the Jesus and His true resurrection?
Why are the lyrics of many of the Lakeland “worship” songs about angels, the “presence of the Lord,” the PLACE, rather than the Lord Himself? Even more importantly, why are these people singing a “worship” song about THEMSELVES? (And yes, I know that there’s a line at the beginning part of the song that talks about “another reason to live,” and then the singer calls out, “His name is Jesus.” But the chorus and the general focus of the lyrics are nonetheless about the people themselves. And…is Jesus “another” reason to live, or, when you get down to the nitty-gritty, is He our ONLY reason to live? I personally vote for “only.”
EDITED, ONCE MORE, TO ADD PERHAPS WHAT I THINK IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION OF THEM ALL: Why are people convinced that if they “feel the Lord,” it genuinely IS the Lord? In false religions (all religions that don’t name Jesus as God’s one and only Son, co-equal with God, and our Savior who died for us), people engage in all kind of religious practices that produce intensely good feelings. Otherwise, why would people be flocking to things like yoga and meditation? Most people who meditate, no matter what they are meditating upon, eventually hit that state of mind where they “sense God.” Do some research, and you’ll stumble across all sorts of accounts of feeling and sensing “God’s” wonderful presence…coming upon people engaging in pagan religious practices…a “God” who often speaks utterly contrary, non-Christian messages to them.
So just because something FEELS good, that does not mean that it IS good. Or that it is of God. Why don’t more Christians understand this?
I’m sure I’ll think of other things that make me wonder. Maybe you have some questions. Add yours in a comment below, and I’ll do the same.
A lot of Charismatics will cite the day of Pentecost, David dancing naked in the streets, or a few other Biblical occurrences as evidence that what they are doing is of God. Yet Acts clearly shows in context that the crowd thought they were drunk because they were all speaking in different languages that they could not have possibly known. The only explanation the crowd could make was that they were drunk. They in no way were flopping around on the floor laughing and speaking in incomprehensible babbling. There was order to it. Likewise, David dancing with all his might before the Lord was genuine worship, not inane concepts like “it’s the glory!” or “more, more more, more…” or “fire Lord! fire!”. While there is genuine experiences of feeling the genuine presence of God, most people mistake goosebumps and inward shivers as being God. I thought that was the presence of God for a long time, until I experienced it in a Mormon service (in which I was investigating the Mormon religion) when they were preaching about Joseph Smith. So if that was the presence of God then Joseph Smith must be a prophet, right? Wrong. It wasn’t the presence of God, it was any number of spiritual or psychological factors of deception that was playing in me at the time. Thus I no longer seek God’s presence in some sort of goosebump feeling… I seek His presence in the secret quiet place where I know by faith He hears. I have no need of goosebumps anymore now that I know the real thing.
I remember Elijah, who saw fire, wind, and an earthquake break the very mountain before him (1 Kings 19) and yet God was not in these signs and wonders, He was in the still small voice. What are we as Christians looking to? The big displays of power or the stillness where God truly speaks?
David,
Those are both good observations. Ever since the Lakeland thing sort of showed up on my radar screen (about 6 weeks ago), I’ve had this verse rattling around in my head:
“An evil generation seeks a sign.”
We have the only “sign” we need – Christ and Him crucified and yet resurrected forever in glory.
Amen!
Charismania, I saw this post on another website. Just wanted to let you know that your “why” questions are spot on! I doubt you will ever get any good answers to them.
I will check out your blog.
Hey, Berean -
Thanks for stopping by!
Yes, you’re right. I’m still waiting for a serious Bentley defender to offer up solid answers to any of my questions. I’m not holding my breath…
Charismania, I agree with everything you’ve been said and am very concerned about Todd Bentley and the attention he’s getting right now. I particularly would emphasise your comment about feelings – there are powerful emotional factors at work (partly motivated by a genuine desire for God) and people caught up in the “revival” are not fully able to discern this. I believe that most (if not all) the manifestations and claims of healing have a psychological explanation.
David, whilst I also agree with your conclusions, I must respond to your comments about dancing. The 2 Sam 6 and 1 Chr 15 passages are amongst the most misunderstood in the bible. If you read them carefully, you’ll note that (2 Sam 6:14 and 1 Chr 16:27) that King David was dressed in a similar way to other people who were officiating in the procession. The reference to “disrobing” (2 Sam 6:20) is generally accepted to mean that King David took off his royal robes (a break with protocol) as he felt that people should not focus on him at this key time in Israel’s history. He chose to dress as a priest and join in the worship along with everyone else, and he certainly wasn’t the only one dancing. I can say more about this passage if you want, but must stress he was not naked or wearing his undies. Don’t worry, I’ve come across many people (including those who’ve been to Bible college) that have made the same mistake.
I’ve been dancing for the Lord for almost 25 years, and all the dancers I’ve met in this time (including those who identify as charismatics) have been rational and intelligent people who seek to express their faith through movement.
The bible mentions dancing in worship more times than being born again. But, for reasons that are mainly cultural, dance has not really been part of evangelical christianity until recently. Consequently, it seems to be treated with undue suspicion and hostility, and I felt this came across slightly in your comment. Whilst I would be concerned if people were dancing for inappropriate reasons (which may well be happening at Lakeland), please don’t tar us all with the same brush.
(Apologies if this has come across as a bit of a rant).
Thanks for that excellent clarification Dancer.
And thank you, David, for graciously accepting it.
Greetings from the UK,
I know I’m a bit late joining this part of the conversation but as I watched Todd last night I kinda went into “Hmmmm” mode
I first saw todd calling 100’s of people for healing and bamming them, during the process a woman comes up and takes off her glasses to reveal she had no eye (I felt so sorry for her). At THIS point he, for the first time, tells the audience that God doesnt always heal straight away. He then proceeds to bam her, She falls down and gets up in the exact same state, no ‘creative healing’.
I saw Todd again last night on the ‘Odd TV channel’, he followed the exact same procedure, he called out the exact same vision he had used in past meetings and had the exact same response, a woman came wearing an eye pad and he then warned the audience that God doesnt always heal straight away. Again this is only stated when a person who has a visible ailment comes up to him.
a 3rd one I have seen, last night a man with a Glass eye comes up for healing telling all he can now see through his GLASS eye, its still remains glass. Todd says “This is a greater miracle that having a new eye”, actually he is quite wrong, it is NOT a greater miracle at all and certainly there is not a shred of evidence, but the audience is now in a frenzy. Ironicaly the man with the glass eye also had no legs other than 2 sticks, naturally he walked off the stage with the same 2 sticks he walked on with. ALl the time Tod shouting “this is a creative miracle of God”.
and while I’m here…(sorry this is lengthy)
Another thing that makes me go hmmm, is the voilence, I saw him kneeing one man in the groin (this spiritual violence is currently the focus of an article I am writing, we have seen from his history that he was predisoded to violence and it seems to me he is fusing it into his ministry), anway I saw him knee this middle aged guy, he confesses to punching a woman in the face and dead legging a pastor all in the name of God. My mind goes back to the fruit of the spirit and the criteria of Peter who said “always be ready to make a defence of the Gospel, with gentleness…”
Anyway I do not have the odd tv channel at home so I only get to watch todd once a fortnight when I visit a fellow CHristian (thankfully).
Finally, thank you to all partaking in this discussion, it has been a real encouragement to see you all questioning and taking a stand for Gods word in the face of opposition from people we genuinely love and care for. This aweful deception is breaking out fast in England, its nothing different to Pensecola and Toronto, I guess we must be glad that we can see clearly the vulnerable pastors who are eager for it. At least we know where NOT to attend.
P.S in my opening paragraph the point I’m making is he is saying the same things over and over in his meetings, its as if all this has been rehearsed and he is using not only the same techniques to wind the audience up but the same statements and paragraphs.
Pete,
Thanks for the updates. I find your observations very interesting.
I’ve been wondering for awhile how the Lakeland meetings can maintain their momentum. It would make sense that this “new thing” would eventually become more formulaic.
The accounts of the “non-miracles” (the lady with no eye, the man with the glass eye) are just so incredibly sad to me. I’m glad that at least you wrote about it here, but I can’t help but wonder where the rest of the pro-”outpouring” crowd is with these instances? The same people who are so quick to chant (and rev up the crowd) with, “God is the same yesterday, today, and forever,” will then try to give disclaimers about how the “creative miracles” take time. That’s not how Jesus healed people in the Bible. They were healed completely and instantaneously, and there was no doubt about their condition, either before or after Jesus touched them.
Again, thanks for your contributions to the site!
Thanks for YOUR contributions Charismania, and for keeping this site going. Its great to know that there are so many others using their mind! The Bible said we are to have the ‘Mind of Christ’ and surely this is a reference to wisdon and discernment too! its unfortunate that these people are casting it (the mind of Christ) to the wind in favour of this hidious new wave of error. Its appearing to be the worst revival of angelic worship ever. I didnt think anything could ever beat Toronto