One of our commenters posted this link to a snippet of a Todd Bentley sermon. While this clip has been making the rounds for awhile and has been discussed on other sites, I listened to it again today and had some additional thoughts about what he says.
I was going to just put those thoughts in a comment where the link was posted, but as I got to thinking about it, I realized that although these particular remarks of Todd’s have already been analyzed by many folks, I don’t really remember anyone mentioning a couple of the most burning thoughts that I had about them.
For the sake of accuracy, I decided to transcribe, to the best of my ability, every word that Todd says in this two-minute clip. Here is the transcript:
This thing’s gonna break out, now just wait up here in Shreveport, I’m releasing it back, to where it all started in 1948, I’m releasing it back.
Now for some of you who are here, it doesn’t really matter to you, all that stuff, all you care about is that God’s moving, and you know what? That’s all that really matters. So if you’re not big on prophetic, supernatural, and angels, I’m sorry. It’s my testimony, but if you want to know why God’s moving, I’m sorry, I have to tell you the whole story. If you don’t believe the story, well – sorry.
You know, I told the Lord, “Why can’t I just move in healing and forget talking about all that…other stuff?”
He said, “Because, Todd, you gotta get the people to believe in the angel.”
I said, “God, why do I want people to believe in the angel, isn’t it about getting the people to believe in Jesus?”
He said, “The people already believe in Jesus, but the church doesn’t believe in the supernatural.”
The church has no problem believing in Jesus. But what we don’t believe in is the supernatural. We don’t believe in angels, we don’t believe in the prophetic, we don’t believe in some of what’s going on. And I’ll tell you what, we need to have an awakening.
I said, “Well, God, maybe you wanna give this ministry to somebody else because nobody’s gonna receive it in the package that I come in.” [CHARISMANIA'S EDITORIAL NOTE: Uh, then why did Todd keep getting all those tattoos over the past couple of years? Clips of him preaching as recently as three years ago show him to be pretty mainstream-looking, with curly hair and un-inked skin. So although he did spend some time in jail as a youth for child molestation, it seems like "the package" that Todd comes in today is increasingly and deliberately MORE "edgy" and controversial than it was before his conversion, not less. I find this rather bizarre, if Todd is truly concerned that the message God wants him to deliver is not going to be well-received because of his looks.]
I said, “You gotta give me the most controversial testimony? You gotta visit me with all this supernatural stuff?” I mean, hey, maybe if I was a little more clean-shaven and polished, people would believe me more. Or maybe the world is looking for something new. How many of you believe we need something new! [Crowd cheers, as the implication of Todd's tone is clearly that we need "something new."]
The most striking thing about Todd’s teachings here is, of course, that he is claiming to say that God spoke to him directly and told him that believing in Jesus is not the point - people already believe in Jesus – but that God wants to move so that the church will come to believe in the supernatural, in angels and in the prophetic.
As many others have already pointed out, it is impossible to imagine, by any stretch of the imagination, that the God of the Bible would ever make such a statement like that. It is utterly contrary to everything everywhere in Scripture.
But aside from that obvious point, something else struck me about this little conversation that Todd claims to have had with God.
Todd says that God told him, “The church doesn’t believe in the supernatural.”
According to Todd’s understanding of what God meant, people in the church don’t believe in angels and the prophetic.
Well, I would beg to differ. I don’t think there’s a shred of a problem with churchfolk NOT believing in angels.
Go to any Christian bookstore and take a look around. You will see lots of angel memorabilia and paraphernalia. Matter of fact, don’t even bother to make it a Christian shop. Go to ANY store that sells knick-knacks, and there’s a very good chance you’ll be able to pick up something made in the likeness of an angel or decorated with angels.
The truth of the matter is that most people believe in angels. I was reading the other day that something like 80% of Americans polled believe that angels are real, and 40% go so far as to believe that they have their own personal guardian angel who plays a part in their lives.
I don’t think the angelic hosts of heaven are getting ripped off in the faith and attention departments!
The second part of what Todd thinks “God” meant when “He” supposedly said that people don’t believe in the supernatural is that, “We don’t believe in the prophetic.”
This is the piece that really got me to thinking.
I would like to ask Todd a question about this one. My question is simply, “Todd, WHY DO YOU THINK that the church doesn’t believe in the prophetic?”
Isn’t it because the majority of us – even those of us who would count ourselves as NOT being cessationists, those of us who would categorize ourselves as Charismatics – see so few examples of real, genuine, Biblical-quality prophecy?
I, for one, used to believe wholeheartedly in just about everything that was presented to me as being “Christian prophecy.” We used to be part of a church where the pastor had the reputation for being “a true prophet.” I spent much time reading and re-reading transcripts of the personal “words” that had been delivered by our pastor to my husband. I thoroughly believed that he was speaking on behalf of God.
I also used to be a regular reader of the Elijah List, which is where, incidentally, I first heard of Todd Bentley several years ago. Although I never did become a subscriber, I would check their website on a regular basis and read through the most recent prophecies. I never was able to quite get around my gut instinct that some of them sure sounded wacky…while others were so vague that they were more like the horoscopes you read in the newspaper. But I made a lot of mental effort to set aside the misgivings that the Elijah List provoked in me, and I would listen respectfully when some friends at our church would breathlessly relay the latest “words” from the likes of Kim Clement and Patricia King (who is one of Todd’s main mentors).
But you know what? It was my regular reading of the ELIJAH LIST, and its prophets’ dismal accuracy record, that finally turned me off on the so-called “prophetic movement.” THAT is why I personally have a difficult time believing much of what is supposed to be “prophecy” today.
So, Todd…I think you are woefully mistaken in your assessment about people’s belief in angels, and I think you’ve got it totally backward when it comes to a belief in “the prophetic.” It’s not that the church needs MORE meetings where they are exposed to MORE talk of angels and prophecy. Nope.
There’s already enough belief in angels…far more belief in angels, if you ask me, than in the historic crucified and risen Jesus Christ.
And if there’s no belief in prophecies? Well, give the church what would REALLY fix this problem. Those of you who are so inaccurate that you make Agnes Nixon from National Enquirer fame look more “anointed” than you - just need to keep your mouths shut. Quit distributing all your vague stuff that almost always turns out to be either obviously misguided or downright false.
I know that I, for one, would have a much stronger belief in “the prophetic” if I hadn’t seen so much garbage being presented as the “word of the Lord.”
How do you guys live with yourselves, anyway? Doesn’t this ever keep you up at night, in a cold sweat because of how wrong you’ve been when you were daring to speak in the holy name of the Lord God Almighty?
I’m telling you, it keeps ME awake at night, worrying on your behalf. May God have mercy.
Thanks for the post!
Please, I urge your readers to go to Justin Peters web site: http://www.justinpeters.org and check out the ROOTS of this deception on his “demo.”
God’s Word is Truth!
Caron
This post is a classic example of misunderstanding something that somebody said, and then embracing a spirit of accusation. Man, be careful!
First of all, Todd heard God speak… this is good! And, God DID NOT say to believe in angels instead of Jesus. My goodness! Be cautious! Both God and Todd Bentley AFFIRMED the need to believe in Jesus! God said that people already believe in Jesus, but they don’t believe in the supernatural.
Trust me on this one- most people don’t! Most people don’t have dreams and visions, angelic encounters, etc. The faith/walking in the Spirit issue is a huge one. Once, at a conference, I asked a question, “How many of you have never heard God’s voice?” I explained what I meant (I was teaching on the topic)… and over 90% raised their hand! How can this be?! How can people live their lives without the voice of God? His sheep hear His voice!
The prophetic is quite simply, learning to hear God’s voice. It’s capturing His heart and declaring His word. Sometimes the words are very simple, and sometimes more weighty.
Regarding Todd’s tattoos… everybody online who’s blogged about them… give it a rest. If you want to embrace an old covenant issue, we can present a variety of others that you are certainly failing to keep.
The point I’m trying to make here is this: People are trying so hard to discredit Todd. How very heartless! And, articles like this one do nothing to cause alarm! No proof of a wrong heart, wrong motives, wrong teaching! Yes, it’s all about Jesus! That was agreed upon! Todd said it with his own mouth, but somehow isn’t credited with it.
I have some additional thoughts on this transcript:
When Bentley says, “I’m releasin’ it back… …to where it all started in 1948″ is he speaking in first person or is he quoting someone else? If it’s first person, how does he have the power to ‘release’ anything from 1948? If it’s third person, just who is he quoting?
And what is the reference of 1948? This is when Latter Rain with its Joel’s Army/Manifest Sons of God teachings, which had its germination at Azuza Street in 1906, experienced its first “revival” with the heretical ‘healer’ William Branham as the most visible adherent. See Bentley’s views on Joel’s Army:
http://www.etpv.org/2002/joelarmy.html
You know, I told the Lord, “Why can’t I just move in healing and forget talking about all that…other stuff?”
What ‘other stuff?’ Preaching? The Gospel? Jesus?
I said, “God, why do I want people to believe in the angel, isn’t it about gettin’ the people to believe in Jesus?”
Now, this is a direct contradiction to his question directlyly preceding this one. Didn’t Bentley just say he wanted just to ‘move in healing’ and forget the ‘other stuff.?’
It’s clear that the Holy Spirit always points to Jesus, sin and repentance; so, just what spirit is Bentley conversing with?
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. [Colossians 2:18 NIV]
And, of course, Bentley’s tattooed ‘package’ is a relatively recent invention by Bentley himself.
- Lee the 2nd
r180/John,
No proof of a wrong heart, wrong motives, wrong teaching!
There’s plenty of proof. You just refuse to see it.
- Lee the 2nd
r180/John,
First of all, Todd heard God speak… this is good!
That’s rather presumpuous of you. How do you KNOW it was God who was speaking? Is it possible Bentley was hearing another spirit?
To quote you from another blog:
I’m not defending Todd… but am also not attacking him.
You sure seem to go to great lengths to defend him for one who is ‘not defending Todd.’ And, it’s interesting that you use his first name rather than his last. Are you on a first name basis with Bentley? It would not be surprising given your mutual IHOP connection.
- Lee the 2nd
r180,
While I have never trolled around and put up comments on YOUR blog, YOU feel free to come around here and accuse ME of “having a spirit of accusation.”
Do you see the irony? It’s like what kindergartners say – “When you point at someone else, you have 4 fingers pointing back at you!”
I do not see how it’s possible that I have “misunderstood” Todd’s very own words. What else could he have meant? I am merely responding to what he clearly SAID.
Would you laud and applaud ME if I sat here and said, “I heard the Lord say that Todd is a fraud”?
I mean, after all – that would mean that at least I am “hearing God’s voice”!
You are spot on. Thanks for this series of posts.
r180/John Burton seems to be the equivalent of Richard Abanes who has taken the role of Rick Warren’s apologist.
Lee, Karen -
Thank you both for your comments.
Something else that struck me about r180’s defense of Todd Bentley is that these apologists are fighting a monster of their own making. Their organizations are the ones who are guilty of distributing this stuff so widely. If the Bentley meetings and sermons hadn’t been offered online, it wouldn’t be so easy to keep tabs on what Todd actually SAID. But because of how Todd’s cheerleaders have promoted and pumped him up on the internet, HIS OWN WORDS are freely available for anyone to read or listen to.
It’s one thing for someone to give a report about what someone else said. There is always the possibility that the person twisted some things or got some things incorrect. But hey, that is NOT the case here! I merely transcribed Todd’s OWN WORDS. His EXACT WORDS.
Yet the apologists like r180 are still coming around and accusing ME of getting it wrong?
The only way they can explain away the unbiblical garbage spewed forth in this particular youtube clip – where we can clearly SEE and HEAR that it was most definitely their boy TODD who said these things – is by twisting and spinning his words in the very same way that they claim I am twisting and spinning.
This is ludicrous.
r180,
Did you see or hear this from Lakeland a couple of nights ago? This comes from comment #20 on the watch these videos of Bentley post on this site. I did not hear this myself:
“Todd began telling everyone that he received prophetic words from very qualified “SEERS” in the church and they told him that his ministry was under a demonic attack right now and that interference in the spirit realm was present, blah, blah, blah. Then he said this interference and attack coming from demons was to try and get him to stop talking about the angels, open heavens and visions in the meetings, but that the revival was …. get this … based on his supernatural experiences that he had, and HE WOULD NOT be silent about all the angels and open portals, visions, supernatural experiences, etc. One of these so-called “seers” told him she saw a white light coming down from the heavens on Todd in a vision.”
If this person understood T. Bentley correctly, then this revival is NOT based on Jesus, but all based on Todd’s personal experiences. Sorry, I thought we were to base our lives on God as revealed in the Bible. Not on some man’s supernatural experiences.
cheryl U.,
Of course I cannot presume to speak for r180. But considering that he’s from IHOP, he’s probably of the mind that unless something is “expressly forbidden” in the Bible, it can be “of God,” especially if it’s coming from a “prophet.”
And since Todd Bentley has been widely recognized by many of IHOP’s big guns as a “prophet,” r180 would likely believe that Todd is literally speaking for God with his words about not being silent about the angels and open portals and so forth.
With this mentality – of putting great stock in anything “prophetic” as long as it is not “expressly forbidden” in the Bible – the people defending Todd Bentley don’t see anything wrong with what he is saying. They don’t believe that his experiences are “expressly forbidden” in the Bible. Therefore, they do not see the (in my thinking) overwhelming evidence throughout the whole Bible that the God Who is revealed in the Bible, the God Who revealed Himself to us in the Bible, would simply not say the things that Todd is saying “God told him.”
Their line of reasoning makes room for God to be inconsistent. They make room, even, for God to out-and-out contradict Himself – in other words, LIE to us. We are supposed to believe the “prophets” because of their claims to be prophetic. Basically, anything a “prophet” says must be more true than what we can already know of God in the Bible.
Charismania,
I see the same problem with the whole prophetic movement. And what a can of worms that opens! We no longer have any way to test anything besides a subjective feeling becuase we can’t “put God in a box.” This anything goes theology is deadly.
cheryl U.,
The “anything goes” theology is precisely why we finally had to leave our Charismatic church. It caused us great agony, but what can you do when “God” is portrayed as a liar through inaccurate prophecies? And then it’s all defended as, “It’s just New Testament prophecy, so therefore you cannot judge it in the same way.”
r180 -
Here is a question for you. Please do not bother commenting here on this blog again unless you answer this question in a straightforward, yes-or-no fashion:
Answering with a simple yes or no, do you believe that God told Todd Bentley the following:
Simple yes-or-no question. Do you believe that Todd was accurate and honest when he said that God told him these things?
If you believe the answer is “yes,” then how do you reconcile this statement with what the Bible says?
Again, if you cannot answer this question, or will not answer it in a straightforward fashion, then please do not ever comment on this site again. Thanks.
Hmmmm… I can’t presume to know exactly what he was communicating, but I have no reason to not believe him. What exactly contradicts the Bible? If something clearly contradicts the Word, then that would be an issue.
One question that I have- why do people who are well outside of Todd Bentley’s (or others) sphere of relationships, presume to need to make comment? What’s the point? Without a close personal relationship with somebody, and without a long process of clarification and a lot of love and back and forth… and agreeing to disagree on non-absolutes of scripture… negative comments about a person are usually irresponsible.
From a Charismatic’s perspective, it would be easy to attack others who don’t speak in tongues, for example… or hit on one of a ton of disagreements… but that wouldn’t be right.
Remember the Noah story… we must cover one another and follow proper protocol and give the process due diligence.
Lastly, based on the quote above, I don’t see a problem with that quote… do you? Jesus is exalted, the supernatural is highlighted.
Also, in casual conversation, or even when preaching, it’s very easy to say something and have it taken out of context, or to misspeak. I’d hold someone to an official doctrinal statement much more readily than I would to a random off the cuff quote. If it’s off the cuff, then analyze it well, take into account that we will most certainly have theological differences, have lots of grace, and above all intercede for the person.
r180 -
I guess your answer speaks for itself.
You see no reason to disbelieve Todd?
That’s incredible. Simply incredible.
Still, though – you never made a clear statement about whether or not you believe him. Do you think that “God” would tell Todd Bentley such a thing?
Yes, or no?
And the answer I am expecting wouldn’t be filled with a bunch of hooey like, “I don’t know Todd’s friends…blah blah blah…so how can I presume to know…”
(Whoops…didn’t mean to lapse into Todd Bentley’s form of speaking in tongues!
)
Your answer would be one of the following two statements:
“Yes, Charismania, I do believe that that was God who spoke to Todd Bentley, just as Todd said He did.”
or,
“No, Charismania, I do NOT believe that that was God’s voice that Todd said he heard.”
One question that I have- why do people who are well outside of Todd Bentley’s (or others) sphere of relationships, presume to need to make comment? What’s the point?
It’s called testing the spirits.
Remember the Noah story… we must cover one another and follow proper protocol and give the process due diligence.
We do not ‘cover’ false prophets as Bentley has shown himself to be. Instead we are to expose them and contend for the faith.
One question that I have- why do people who are well outside of Todd Bentley’s (or others) sphere of relationships, presume to need to make comment?
If that isn’t blatant elitism, I don’t know what is. So, Todd Bentley has an inner circle of “prophetic seers” and only these people are allowed to speak about his teachings and the messages he sends to the rest of the body of Christ.
I think that comment was very telling of the spirit behind this whole supernatural manifestations movement.
It’s impossible to definitively know… I see his heart, and he loves God desperately. He’s human, so it’s possible to miss it at times. However, I know he hears God’s voice… I’ve witnessed that… and what was said isn’t biblically problamatic… at least the part you posted. If it said to refute Jesus or to downplay Jesus, then of course it would be a problem. But, that’s not what I heard.
But again, have grace. He’s human. I’m sure he’ll say things that don’t seem to register at times. Just as you and I do.
There’s a huge difference between poor prophecy and false prophecy. Poor prophecy is prophecy via fallible humans (NT prophecy is different than OT prophecy)… false prophecy is demonic and is fully intended to cause harm.
To test the spirits is fairly easy- if one exalts Jesus, then the test is passed. Todd does this without question.
Jan-
It’s not elitism, it’s practical. Only those close to him, his overseers, etc. have the opportunity to counsel him directly. People outside of that realm can only point fingers, and they can only participate in a single-sided process. To make a negative declaration about someone without being a part of the counseling process, without discussing which points it’s ok to disagree on, etc., we can’t have an effect.
That’s what the process is all about… back and forth, discussion, counsel, etc.
And, though it seems as if some folks don’t seem to acknowledge that it’s ok to disagree on certain theological points, it is ok… we can disagree on tongues, the prophetic, eternal security, etc… and not attack each other.
If Todd were ever to tell me that Jesus isn’t God, then that would be an issue. If he said the blood was impotent, that would be an issue. But, so far, I personally haven’t heard him cross the line of biblical absolutes. If he does, then I’ll certainly ramp up prayer for him… and see how those closest to him may counsel.
But r180…
Exactly WHAT is Todd talking about when he uses the name, “Jesus”?
You see, this is where I would part ways from your line of reasoning. I think that Todd is not referring to the Jesus of the Bible.
The Jesus that Todd has described in NUMEROUS videos and audio recordings of his sermons is way different than the Jesus of the Bible. Todd’s Jesus appears to him in visions and says stuff that the Jesus of the Bible would not have said.
Todd’s “God” takes him on trips to heaven that sound incredibly like alien abductions, full of fear and screaming.
I realize that all of us will make mistakes. But this isn’t about simple mistakes. It’s not about one or two “misstatements,” where Todd somehow got twisted up in his own words. By his own assertion, his entire ministry is based upon the visions that he describes. Much in these visions does not line up with the Bible.
If you see nothing wrong, nothing that opposes the Bible, in the transcribed words of Todd in the post above, then you and I have different views of Scripture. That’s actually what it comes down to.
I could spend literally all night here posting verses where the Bible asserts that the message of salvation, the message that we are to proclaim, has NOTHING to do with “the supernatural” as Todd (and you) seem to understand it. Anything that man would exalt above Christ, God would not be happy with.
But…I don’t think there’s a way to have this discussion with you. I believe you do not see the Bible in the same way that I do. We are working from VERY DIFFERENT presuppositions.
You are willfully choosing to believe that Scripture is compatible with virtually any teaching as long as the person delivering it has been somehow vetted as “a true prophet.” Even if something they say is extremely different from what we can know from the Bible – as are Todd’s many, many visions of heaven, for example – we’re still supposed to believe that the same God of the Bible would now change His ways and reveal this stuff to Todd…
And why? Because Todd said so, and because Todd has been vouched for as a “prophet” by other “prophets.”
You know, I’ll stick with the Bible ANY day.
r180 – “Many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He’ and will mislead many.” (Mark 13:6) And before anyone tries to state that Todd has not claimed to be Christ, that is not what this verse is saying. The personal pronoun used in “I am He” was used by Jesus Himself reflexively. Thus many will come stating that Jesus is Lord and will deceive many. Nowhere does it say that if Jesus is exalted the test is passed. Exalting Jesus with one’s mouth and yet having a heart far from God does not mean someone is of the truth – period. If not one of the supposed super apostles and prophets of Christianity is denouncing the glaring inconsistencies, foolish stage performances, and occultic nature of Todd’s claims then Satan’s grip on many parts of the church is stronger than I realized.
Several things really stick hard in my mind as very indicative of Todd’s spirit from watching moments of this revival:
1) One was a young woman coming up to the stage with serious cleavage showing. Todd blew on her and as she fell over he made sexual grunting sounds as he stared at her on the floor.
2) Another moment was when people were coming nearby his podium and falling over like lunatics. One woman stated that she felt the anointing really strong around the podium. To which Todd replies “Yes, the anointing is at my podium”. Thus the posessive determiner for the podium is Todd not God. Who then is running the show? Todd or God?
3) When the young man came up with the resurrection report for the person supposedly resurrected in the gym, he had a smirk on his face typical of a kid feeling the exhileration of acting out a prank (I used to struggle hard with keeping a straight face when I was pranking friends). When Todd finished with his dramatic response, his assistant made the comment “It was all those seeds you sowed in the gym Todd” to which Todd gleefully accepts. I really get the feeling that some of these people coming up on stage with reports of the most dramatic miracles are actors.
4) The cell-phone used by Todd to report on the young girl’s resurrection was the same type that the young man reporting on the gym resurrection was using. Why does there seem to be a stage-prop cell-phone?
Just a few of my own observations in addition to the countless others people have reported seeing.
charismania,
pardon my rabbit trail here; but, I have some points to make regarding some of John’s comments.
r180,
Here’s a doctrinal statement for the Church of Latter Day Saints. Can you find fault with this Biblically?
“The gospel of Jesus Christ is Heavenly Father’s plan for the happiness and salvation of His children and is centered on the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Heavenly Father sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to show us how to live meaningful and happy lives and experience eternal joy after this life. Through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, you can become clean from sin and enjoy peace of conscience. To become worthy to live in Heavenly Father’s presence after this life and to receive this peace and strength, you must learn and follow the principles and ordinances of the gospel. The first principles of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ and repentance. The first ordinances of the gospel are baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. After you learn and follow the first principles and ordinances of the gospel, you must seek to follow Christ’s example throughout the remainder of your life. This continued faithfulness is called “enduring to the end.”
God sent His Beloved Son, Jesus Christ, into the world so that all of His children would have the possibility of returning to live in His presence after they die. Only through the Savior’s grace and mercy can you become clean from sin so that you can live in your Heavenly Father’s presence.”
Do you see any problem with this? It seems like it exalts Christ to me.
The point I’m making is that while you assert that a doctrinal statement is more convincing of a person or ministry’s stance, here’s a case where that’s not true. And, this is merely one example.
Now, how about this vision of Joseph Smith:
“I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head,” he wrote, “above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.” Within that light, he saw two personages — one of whom spoke Joseph’s name, pointed to the other, and said, “This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!” Church members refer to this experience as the “First Vision.” It began the work of restoring the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth.
Using your logic of ‘if ain’t expressly forbidden in the Bible, then it can’t be discounted’ then this would certainly be OK in your book. In fact, it doesn’t sound dissimilar to some of Bentley’s visions.
Joseph Smith is perhaps best known for his translation of the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Some years after his First Vision, Church members believe that Joseph was led to a hill near Palmyra, New York, where he received an ancient record from an angel known as Moroni.
Again, according to your belief as I stated two paragraphs above, you could not discount Smith’s angel Moroni. Bentley and Bob Jones have Emma and Joseph Smith has Moroni. Bob Jones and the other modern ‘prophets’ have revelations which they claim are at a ‘higher level’ than scripture. So, then how could you discount the Book of Mormon?
The point of this whole exercise is to demonstrate the slippery slope one goes down when the Bible does not become the final source for doctrine and experience.
r180,
You say only the overseers of Todd have the ability to counsel him with any effect. Todd surrounds himself with the people who believe in the same wierd supernatural experiences that he has, and even promotes them, like Bob Jones and Patricia King.
I just want to say that I have also been around the prophetic circuit a long time. I used to make trips out to IHOP when it was in Grandview in the double wide trailers. I was friendly with Gary Weins and went out to dinner with him a couple of times (with his wife too). IHOP was awesome and the intercessory prayer was the Word. They prayed the scriptures. I saw nothing unusual or weird at IHOP, only devotion and heartfelt love for the Lord.
I’ve been to the MorningStar conferences in Jacksonville and Charlotte, NC with Rick Joyner. I never could understand his teaching or his books, but I joined in the dance and praise.
I have many, many different color flags that I have waved in worship and was instrumental in putting together a worship seminar here. I play the guitar and am also a worship leader and have lead ladies worship teams. I still lead worship at times. I was a member of the Vineyard for many years and believe in “doin’ the stuff.”
All that to say I’ve been there, done that and bought the t shirt.
No one is against Todd Bentley on a personal level. It seems like a very nice guy and I’m sure very well liked as a person. The only issues we have about this revival is the way Todd is exhalting the presence of angels and open portals and visits to the third heaven. This is very confusing to new Christians and gets older ones off track seeking signs and wonders more than seeking God. I know several people who go from prophetic meeting to meeting seeking words from God, yet God wants to speak to them personally and have an intimate relationship with them. They continue to try and find God’s will through other people who proclaim to understand dreams and visions. If they seek the Lord fervently, he will speak to their hearts and they will begin to learn His voice for themselves.
An evil generation seeks after a sign. This is very dangerous.
Jan
Lee,
Your post was excellent! Do you know, this very line of reasoning was what caused the light to go on for me when we were deep in the throes of Charismatic craziness.
I’ve been a student of Mormonism (as a Bible-believing Christian) for years, long before my own Charismatic experience (which, for the record, I still believe was real). I’ve taught classes on Mormonism, so I am well-acquainted with their faith, even to the point of knowing a lot of stuff that a lot of Mormons don’t know about their own faith. (The Mormon Church’s official stance when sending out the missionaries is, “Milk before meat.” In other words, you don’t get to know the really weird stuff till you’re so deep into things that you can’t imagine life as anything BUT an LDS. But I digress!
)
Anyway, knowing as much about the LDS faith as I do, I was cruising around online one day, searching for SOMETHING that would explain all the oddities of our own Charismatic church. We’d been really worried about many issues for a long time – at least a year, if not longer. But always, ALWAYS, I kept being stymied by the fact that I was validating all the things I knew were wrong with, “But I had a great spiritual experience there, so this church simply MUST be all right.”
Then I stumbled onto a website entitled, “The Other Side of the River.” On it, a guy named Kevin Reeves describes his experiences with the Toronto Blessing and how eventually, he had to acknowledge that both his church’s practices and the Bible could not co-exist as truth.
He used a line, something to the effect of, “If you devalue the Bible, or place personal revelations on par with Scripture, then you must acknowledge the validity of the Mormon religion.”
That was, as Oprah would say, my “Aha!” moment. It cut through the fog of all the deception and delusion that we’d been under. I knew the Bible very well, and I knew the parts of our church experience that were in conflict with the Bible.
So thanks for sharing that Mormon thing, Lee. I don’t think r186 is going to change his mind anytime soon, but maybe someone else is out there reading this, teetering on the brink, looking for answers, and maybe you’ve helped them.
Jan,
I can totally understand what you’re saying. I have my own praise flag. And I still use it.
Charismania,
Thanks for your approval of my rabbit trail. I can’t take credit for that post as an original thought because someone posted the LDS doctrinal statement over on the old signofjonah blog as a way to show that doctrinal statements do not necessarily reflect the true beliefs of a church. I have The Other Side of the River which I bought to give me more of an insider’s look into the movement in general and how one can get out (I’ve never been in it myself). This may have been in my subconscience — Reeve’s quote about the Mormon religion.
I have a now ex-friend who was caught up in this stuff; and, I was hoping to give her the book if she should ever get out as I’ve been praying for her. She cut off all communication with me insisting I do the same; so, the ball is in her court, so to speak.
I really don’t know much about Mormonism; and, I’m not sure I want to. But, in my brief glance at their website it sure doesn’t differ much from the whole ‘modern prophetic’ movement.
I am the first to admit that much that will happen in venues like Lakeland are weird… really bizarre. But, I personally love it, and feel that the more God shows up, the more we live in the Spirit, the more the invisible realm invades the visible, the more different to us it will be. That’s not to say that everything has to be ‘weird’ to be valid… but, it should be expected. Shouldn’t surprise us when it happens.
We don’t seek after a sign… but, when signs, wonders, miracles, healings, dreams, visions, etc. aren’t occurring, we have to ask ourselves why. What’s wrong?
The third heaven, angelic visitation stuff really is quite normal… it’s abnormal in a logic/intellectually driven Western culture… but we can’t judge what’s happening on our own comfort levels.
To be void of encounters (dreams, visions, etc.) should be alarming to us… not condemning, but it should cause us to hunger for an encounter with God. God is experiential… not simply logical. He is felt, heard, experienced… should be as a normal part of our Christian lives.
When God moves, our intellect and flesh will have the opportunity to be greatly offended.
Is the issue primarily that Todd focuses on angelic visitations and the like? If so, I can’t see that you can argue that. It may not be normal for you (or me… I’ve not had one!)… but, it’s fully scriptural.
If he worships angels, that’s different. But there is nothing forbidden regarding the focus on angelic encounters. We might have an opinion that someone is out of balance regarding focus on angels vs. Jesus… and that’s a valid concern… but it’s super hard to appropriately draw an accurate conclusion.
r180,
Why do folks think that the more different an experience is the more likely it is to be God? The folks in the Bible, particularly in the New Testament, had lots of encounters with God. Nothing about them was anything remotely like what we see happening in many of these revivals and confernences now days. Since the Bible was given to us to, among other things show, what our relationship with God is to be like and how God interacts with His people, why do we think He has to be different, weird and bizarre today?
And, I have been thinking lately about one of the fruits of the spirit–gentleness. How in the world does Bentley’s kicking an old lady in the face, pounding crippled legs up and down on the floor, punching people in the stomach, or knocking people to the floor and choking them, etc. line up with the fruit of the Spirit? And He insists that God told him to do this? And even that people weren’t being healed because he hadn’t kicked the old lady in the face? (I think that is the one God told him to do to see people healed) This simply isn’t the God of the Bible–the characters of the two gods are just totally different. So, if Todd was really told this by a spirit, I can’t possibly see that it could be the Holy Spirit.
I am the first to admit that much that will happen in venues like Lakeland are weird… really bizarre. But, I personally love it, and feel that the more God shows up, the more we live in the Spirit, the more the invisible realm invades the visible, the more different to us it will be. That’s not to say that everything has to be ‘weird’ to be valid… but, it should be expected. Shouldn’t surprise us when it happens.
So, then you would not have a problem at a Mormon or New Age conference with similar ‘weird’ or ‘bizarre’ occurrences? Both speak of Jesus.
As I guessed, you chose not to answer my questions equating Mormonism to the ‘modern prophetic.’ Why don’t you adhere to Mormonism? What could possibly be offensive with the LDS church if you accept all that’s going on in the ‘modern prophetic.’ What’s the difference?
Is the issue primarily that Todd focuses on angelic visitations and the like? If so, I can’t see that you can argue that. It may not be normal for you (or me… I’ve not had one!)… but, it’s fully scriptural.
If he worships angels, that’s different. But there is nothing forbidden regarding the focus on angelic encounters. We might have an opinion that someone is out of balance regarding focus on angels vs. Jesus… and that’s a valid concern… but it’s super hard to appropriately draw an accurate conclusion.
It is NOT scriptural to call upon angels as Bentley does. All angelic encounters in Biblical encounters are the other way — angels appeared to individuals. Angels are NOT female in scripture. Angels do not provide an “anointing.” There is one anointing and that is the Holy Spirit and He is not transferable [1 John 2:20-27] Angels do not provide finances. Why call on ‘angels’ when we as NT believers can go directly to the Holy of Holies? To bypass the Holy of Holies and go to angels denies the sufficiency of Christ.
There is no one primary issue with Bentley; they are manifold; but, it really comes down to doctinal deficiencies:
1) Doctrine that puts man equal to Christ [Latter Rain/Joel's Army/Manifest Sons of God].
2) Mistreatment of many scriptures.
3) Extra-Biblical / un-Biblical Angelic focus as I outlined above.
4) Actions which betray the way a man of God should operate using the Bible as plumbline. Physical violence to ‘heal’ or provide an ‘anointing’ — kicking, head-butting, etc.; cutting off interviewees mid-sentence to “Bam” them with his ‘anointing;’ strange manifestations which mirror those of kundalini practitioners;
5) False foretelling prophecies.
6) Outrightly lying, contradicting himself. There’s plenty on YouTube video. He even contradicts himself regarding his ‘anointing’ power source — most times he credits his ‘angel’ (the same ‘angel’ as William Branham), while others it’s the Holy Spirit.
7) He associates with others of dubious character: false prophets of old and new including Bob Jones (who told women to strip naked in front of him to be ‘naked unto the Lord’ to receive ‘words’ from him), Paul Cain (who outrightly lied at Lakeland regarding past homosexual history claiming to have been ‘celebate all these years’ although in 2004 he admitted to homosexual relationships) and William Branham (who denied the Trinity calling it a ‘doctrine of demons and who claimed the Bible, pyramids and astrology as the source of his theology).
Over on Miriam Franklin’s site, here is an index to articles on Bentley and his associates which is quite exhaustive:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/26/index-to-all-articles-on-todd-bentley-lakeland-outpouring-florida-revival/
How much proof do you need to determine if Bentley is a true man of God or a false prophet? Keep in mind the word ‘prophet’ is one who is a spokesperson for God; ie, forthtelling (preaching/teaching the Word) and foretelling. And, don’t give me the ‘NT prophesy is different than OT prophesy’ as there is absolutely NO Biblical basis for that. In fact, I challenge you to find chapter and verse for it.
r180,
Here’s a good question posed by Miriam on her blog. Why doesn’t Bentley pass the ‘anointing’ on to his friend and mentor Bob Jones who is currently having kidney trouble? Surely, if Bentley claims to have raised some from the dead and healed so many he could heal Jones, right?
How are Todd’s seemingly everyday angelic visitations and trips to heaven “normal” for Christians? Where do we see the Apostles or any other New Testament Christian making this a regular activity?
You see, the way that I read the Bible is, I think that God made sure we were told in Scripture all the important things about how to mature and be successful in the Christian life. If God thought that regular visions and trips to heaven were important – or even desirable or supposed to be the “norm” – He would have explicitly said so in the Bible.
But instead, we see almost the opposite. There are actually very few visions (and as far as I can remember, only John’s trip in Revelation, when it comes to travels to heaven) recorded in Scripture. The one vision which Paul talked about was couched in such vague terms (”I know a man…whether in the body or not, I am not sure…” ) that it’s difficult to know what he was talking about. He also explicitly said that he could not discuss what he saw there.
Contrast that with the seemingly daily out-of-body experiences that Todd reports, and the level of detail that Todd uses, and Todd’s visions and trips just don’t line up with what was the “norm” of Biblical Christianity.
Add to that the fact that if you do some research, Todd’s tall tales sound FAR MORE like New Age stuff than they do the Bible. This ought to be very, very alarming to any Christian familiar with New Age goals and philosophy.
“the more the invisible realm invades the visible, the more different to us it will be” … this line of reasoning seems very much influenced by Bill Johnson’s book “When Heaven Invades Earth” which has been a popular book among Pentecostals and Charismatics for the past few years (my parents being quite into him). (Todd has even talked about being at conferences where Johnson has spoken.) I myself saw Johnson speak in Las Vegas a couple years ago and ended up walking out of the service after charismania ensued when he had everyone pull out and lay hands on their wallets to cancel their debts (as if prayer was going to cancel the consequences of bad financial decisions). Before he gave this directive he explained that he felt led to do so because he felt God had spoken to him through the number “5″ (it was 5:55 when he pulled into the parking lot). 5 means debt or something along those lines according to him, so thus we have a supposed Christian prophet using occultic numerology (or perhaps Sesame Street theology – “today’s sermon is brought to you by the number 5!”) to divine God’s speaking to the church. And as if to quell all doubt, his wife got up and said that she had repented of doubt in this area and anyone who doubts should repent also. I ended up repenting of not walking out sooner when I had felt the Holy Spirit’s warning flags.
Essentially his book is all about one thesis concept: “Supernatural occurences must be the norm in Christianity.” While this is not necessarily malicious and dangerous on the surface, it preps Christians to readily accept anything supernatural as being from God. It converts faith into a quantifiable substance of which if you have enough of it “you too can experience supernatural occurences!”. It also converts discernment into being a gift only available to the super-prophetic (we just have to trust them that this stuff is of God). It tells everyone who is hungry for more of God to fill this hunger with the supernatural delivered to them by the hands of God’s anointed ones (not God’s Word). IT IS elitism. And yes, unfortunately elitism has been quite practical throughout human history for the means of unrighteous men.
While miracles, healings, and genuine angelic visitations (confirmed by the testing of the spirits) should readily be received in Christianity, we will all know the real thing when it is apparent and verifiable. The mission fields of India and China are ripe with genuine and readily apparent miracles, to which Christians are being tortured and martyred for their verifiable testimonies. Such would look upon the pseudo-miracles of Todd’s revival and baffle at the quickness to which western Christians readily accept nothing and something.
Throughout all of the supernatural experiences I’ve had in my life, and all of the nice prophetic words I received, not one of them equated to solid transformation that led me closer to Christ. Only by my praying to be humbled (and boy was I humbled) did I ever draw closer to my Lord and my God.
“On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.”
err “nothing as something”
Hi Charismania,
Thanks for keeping us up to speed on Bentley’s false and dangerous movement. Truly, there are a multitude of “itching ears” out there who thrive on all this hocus-pocus. Having been involved in the occult many years ago, I must say that I see NO DIFFERENCE whatsoever between the things I experienced in that unholy mess from what I’ve seen of this Florida “Outpouring.” This is an outpouring alright, but the rain isn’t falling from heaven.
Vicki,
Thanks for your input as I believe it very valuable. Would you mind elaborating and providing parallels between your experience in the occult and the goings-on in Lakeland. I, for one, am very interested.
- Lee the 2nd (as ‘author’ of all the above comments by ‘Lee’)
David,
I really appreciate your comment. It contains some really good observations.
I can remember many instances of “Charismatic numerology” at our former church. (I got an extreme chuckle out of the Sesame Street, “Brought to you by the number 5″ line!
)
The majority of these numerology instances would happen when guest ministers were there. Our own pastor did not use this device that often, but even he occasionally would suggest an offering amount that symbolized something. For instance, he announced that the number “8″ symbolized “new beginnings,” and if you wanted a financial new beginning, you could give an offering of $888 and he would put your name on his prayer list and commit to pray for you by name for a whole month.
It is a testament to our pastor’s ability to come across as utterly sincere that the above instance did not bother me. In fact, I honestly believed that the Lord had spoken this to him. He was that convincing.
The ones that DID bother me and make me extremely uneasy were those that came from the visiting ministers. I especially remember a time when T.D. Jakes preached. He announced, as he was winding down his talk and getting ready to take up the collection, that there was an anointing present for financial miracles and this anointing had to do with a particular verse. I can’t remember which verse, but let’s just say that it was Psalm 21:3. He said that if you wished to activate this anointing, give an offering with those numbers in it, like $213. If you could not afford $213, then give $21.30. He believed that everyone in the room could afford at least $21.30 to “sow into this anointing.”
At that time, I really liked T.D. Jakes (actually, despite what I now know of his “Oneness Pentecostal” beliefs and his obvious “prosperity pimping,” I still can’t help but like him). His preaching was simply amazing – at one point during his sermon, the atmosphere in the room was so heavy that even grown men were openly sobbing.
But…taking numbers from certain Bible verses seemed like the height of manipulation. I was sitting there, watching all the people overcome by their emotions, hustling to get out their checkbooks, and I wondered if ANY of them realized that God had not put the verse numbers in the Bible. I mean, they were only added a few hundred years ago by a man, to make it easier for us to locate particular passages, you know?
It’s the same thing with the garbage that comes down from the Elijah List gurus. I’m especially turned off by how certain “prophets” make a big deal out of particular days on the Jewish calendar. They’ll say, “God’s calendar is not our calendar. On God’s calendar, it’s actually the year 5454.” (I’m pulling a random number out of the air.) “The number 54 is significant as being a year of plenty! I am prophesying to you that this will be a year of plenty!”
But then those exact same guys, in separate prophecies, will make a big deal out of how it’s the year 2008, and 8 is the year of completion.
Such a load of garbage!
charismania, you’re right on about all this numerology hubbub. The entire concept of “unlocking the anointing” through writing a check for a certain “key number” is so downright evil. And I say evil after having debated of what word to use; but there is just no way to water down the reality of such deception. They are essentially selling trinkets and indulgences as the Catholic Church has – just in different forms. Instead of buying your way to heaven, it’s buying your way to prosperity.
One huge thing that is tied up in all this numerology hubbub of the Hebrew calendar (they could just as well use the Chinese calendar), is all the use of symbols to indicate something new: “This is the year of divine rain!” or “This year is the year of the horse!” Thus every year (and boy have they been going by fast lately) is some new prophetic concept that we all must grasp to. And one of the biggest things that has turned me off to Charismatic churches, is this repetitive and worn-out concept of “God is doing something new!” All my life, growing up in Charismania, God was doing something new according to my pastors. And whenever I go back to visit my old church (because I have such good friends that go there), I hear the same rhetoric over and over again: “We’re in a new season!” Why can’t God be doing what He was doing last year (or last decade)? Why does He constantly have to be changing and updating Himself (God 10.0!) for our prophetic pleasure and consumption? Is He not the same yesterday, today, and forever? Why then is He constantly changing His mind and never finishing His last task? The God of Charismania seems rather capricious to me. I picture these churches as being little kids in a cardboard car pretending to be going somewhere and imaginative enough to believe that the car is real.
David,
Again, great observation, about how Charismaniacs are always declaring that God is “doing something new.”
I remember the first time I was genuinely bothered by a message at our former church. It happened when we were relatively new to all things Charismatic (I think we’d been at the church just a couple of months), and at that point, I was still writing off some of the little things that nagged at me as being just the product of adjusting to the new culture. I’d spent all the rest of my Christian life at Baptist/Evangelical churches, and even then, I knew that I was projecting a lot of my expectations from the past (for “how things ought to be done” ) onto the new church. The stuff that wasn’t clearly spelled out in the Bible, I just tried to shrug off and tell myself that I was just being “religious.”
And for some things, I probably was.
But then, maybe two or three months into our time there, the pastor started a new series of messages entitled, “Dream Big And Believe God For Favor.” This series was stretched out over many weeks. The first Sunday or two, he talked about the need for us to “enlarge our vision.”
At that moment in my life, I can honestly say that I was content with everything I had. We owned two relatively new vehicles that were exactly what we wanted. We’d moved into our dream home less than a year earlier. (Our house is by no stretch of the imagination a mansion, but it was brand new, built to our specifications, in a great neighborhood, with all the features we wanted…and even now, we still are perfectly happy with it.) At that time, my husband was happy with his job. We have great kids. Our extended family was all doing well. Truly, in terms of material goods and earthly stuff, I was content.
I realize that the pastor might not necessarily have only meant “dream big” for earthly stuff, but honestly, in those messages, that is exactly how it came across. He used a lot of examples of wanting a better car, a bigger house, a better job, a healing, and so forth. Sure, he threw in, “Dream big that your unsaved loved ones will come to know the Lord.”
But mostly, his focus was on the material, how it is never God’s will for us to stay in one place, but it is always God’s will for us to keep increasing.
He even mentioned how he personally was not content with the size of our church. The church had moved into a brand-new amazing facility just a couple of years prior to our arrival there, and I clearly remember looking around the sanctuary as he was talking, and marveling at how he could stand there and declare that he wanted the building to fill up to overflowing, so that there would be a need to expand the sanctuary.
It also blew me away because I thought the church was just the perfect size at that point. I’d guess that on any given Sunday, they had probably 800 to 1,000 in attendance. It was large enough to have a lot of cool programs, great kids’ stuff, and such, but small enough so that on Sunday nights, when the crowds were a lot smaller, you could still feel like you had a personal connection with the pastor. (Side note: it was always about connecting to the pastor and his family, never about forming relationships with other church members.)
I could not figure out why the pastor would want the church to “increase” a whole lot more. It seemed perfect the way it was, and there were certainly tons of other churches close by that could benefit from more members. So it wasn’t a question, necessarily, of “growing” so that new converts would have a place to worship.
I remember leaving that service and being so puzzled over the whole thing. I was trying hard to drum up a personal response in myself, where I could “apply” what I’d heard, but I just couldn’t. I couldn’t think of anything in particular to “dream big” for. Plus, I couldn’t understand the other applications, such as the pastor declaring that he wanted the church to “blow the roof off the place.”
And the biggest thing of all was that I thought this message was in direct conflict with what the Bible told us. I mean, aren’t we told to be content with what we have? Doesn’t the Bible tell us, “Godliness with contentment is great gain”?
The verses that the pastor used to bolster his message also didn’t seem to go. The whole thing left me cold.
But as the weeks passed and we heard more and more about this whole “Dream big and believe God for favor” thing, I began to think that maybe the problem was just me and my “religious” background. The pastor told us over and over again that God was going to do something new, and we needed to “dream big” and be ready for it. I have to admit, the message was very exciting, especially when the pastor went on his rants against “religion,” where traditional churches were just “business as usual,” but at OUR church, God was about to do a new thing.
This was, as I said, early in our time there. I eventually managed to quell most of my misgivings and get into the spirit of “expecting a new thing.”
But then, I finally had to admit, about the fifth or sixth time the pastor started a new series about some “new thing that God was going to do,” it all began to strike me as tiresome. Didn’t anyone else think that the talk of the “new things” started to ring hollow when they never seemed to happen? Why didn’t anyone notice that none of the prophecies about the overflowing building ever came to pass? Why didn’t more people get weary of drumming up enthusiasm for their own PERSONAL dreams that never came to pass?
So I would thoroughly agree with you that a huge problem in Charismania is this obession with “the new thing.” I came to realize that they’ve built their identity around being “new” and different than “religion as usual.”
What they don’t bother to tell you is that none of this is even remotely Scriptural. And that after awhile, even the “new” will start to seem old if that’s all you hear about.
Charismania,
You said,
“So I would thoroughly agree with you that a huge problem in Charismania is this obession with “the new thing.” I came to realize that they’ve built their identity around being “new” and different than “religion as usual.”
What they don’t bother to tell you is that none of this is even remotely Scriptural. And that after awhile, even the “new” will start to seem old if that’s all you hear about.”
Not only that, but didn’t you notice that the “new thing” was also an excuse to justify any strange thing that might happen?
Most of the charismatic experience is simply a transition from being a servant of God(”religion as usual”) to becoming a consumer of God(charismania”).
And of course the key to greater consumption is marketed as a process of funneling money thru God’s anointed spokesmans, who have been granted the ability to distribute more of God, and burdened with the responsibility of acting as His banker. The greater blessings always come to the greater blessed.
Once you have stepped back from this merry go-round, it sometimes feels like someone who is standing in the middle of a house that has just burned down, and is sifting thru the refuse hopeing to find something of value.
Boyd,
You said -
This is an excellent way of putting it.
My husband and I were talking about this just last night. We don’t believe most of the pastors/evangelists in Charismania are fully aware of how they view themselves and the level of manipulation they engage in. Our former pastor, for instance, is one who – I think – genuinely believes in much of what he says and does. There’s almost no other way he could continue to project such total honesty and sincerity, if he did not believe in what he was doing.
And why shouldn’t he believe it? It seems to work – for HIM.
He’d “preach the word” (in his mind, it was “the word,” anyway), and people would bless him. We’d often hear stories of people who had given their last dime, only to turn around and have someone hand them a random check for a thousand dollars. The crowd would always go wild after these stories. And I’ll bet the offerings were amazing too.
And there was Pastor Smith, driving his expensive Mercedes, living in his luxurious home in his gated neighborhood, wearing his designer clothes.
He felt perfectly justified, too, in having these things, because after all, he was the prophet, the dispenser of God’s presence.
He had God on tap, so he saw no problem in living like a king and playing God’s banker.
Charismania,
This is why many people in my city have stopped going to church and have a hard time trusting a church or the pastor’s motives. This is why many are sceptical when it comes to tithing. They don’t know if the money is really going towards the work of the Lord, or to pay for a vacation.
Many of us came from the Jesus movement in the 70s and 80s with the word of faith teaching. The church I attended at that time started out as a small home fellowship but we kept growing and finally had to rent a building and became a church. The elders prayed together and would not make any decisions unless everyone agreed. My husband was one of the elders. The pastor and his wife were poor, with no formal education. The pastor painted houses for a living. They were ex-hippies. One day they told the elders that they decided to change things, that from now on they would make all the decisions regarding the church themselves. The elders were told to agree with them or step down. The pastor decided to buy some land and have the congregation build a new church, then a school, and finally a gymnasium for the school which turned into the main church. Not to forget, they also added a Christian radio station. on the grounds. All of this financed and built by the congregation.
The only people who benefited from all this was the pastor and his wife. They quickly became wealthy enough to live in an exclusive neighborhood in a huge brand new house. When we were building the school, the pastor and his wife asked the church for a sacrificial offering. The elders were asked to give $500 each. My husband and I were struggling raising 3 small children at the time, so we put our $500 on a credit card, meanwhile, as we all gave this sacrificial offering, the pastor and his wife were having a built-in swimming pool put in their backyard. One time they took month vacation to Disney World with their family saying the Lord made Disney World for them to enjoy.
One Sunday the pastor’s wife got up and and scolded the entire church because not enough people came out to the Saturday work day. She ripped up the membership list and said whoever came to the next work day is the true members of the church. Not only did people work on Saturday, but they had people (working for free) all during the week as well. Numerous marriages were under severe pressure by the church. Some got divorced.
Many people were hurt by this ministry, which started out being a good, strong, word of faith church. Many people were saved and filled with the Holy Spirit and the church sent out missionaries and did many wonderful works.
People gave their time, sweat and money into this ministry and ended up leaving with heartache and a lot of emotional pain. Many years later, when I run into some of these precious people, I see that the hurt is still in their hearts from how they were treated by this ministry.
Jan -
Wow, thanks for sharing your story. What a powerful but incredibly sad thing to have gone through!
I think your story is a good illustration of the “tipping point,” when “good pastors go bad” – and it really seems to happen when they shift from seeing themselves as servants to seeing themselves as large and in charge.
I wonder what the catalysts for this change would be? Some conference that they attended? Another ministry they admire who goes this way, and then the pastors see the fruits and want that for themselves? A strong sense of entitlement that comes from the natural awe and hero worship lavished on them by people who were honestly touched spiritually by them?
I think back to our former pastor and his family. By the time we arrived at that church, they were already quite well-established financially, with a gorgeous church facility and a McMansion house for themselves. But it wasn’t always like that, and even in the early part of our time there, it still hadn’t seemed to completely have gone to their heads.
I think their transition probably began before we arrived but really accelerated once they started hanging with the big name ministries that they would invite in to speak.
And I also believe that they genuinely saw themselves as being dispensers of God Himself. If you’re under the impression that you are imparting the Holy Spirit every time you choose to lay hands on someone and they dramatically fall down and start trembling, and sometimes you don’t feel like laying hands on people so you choose not to…don’t you essentially “have God on tap,” at your own disposal? I think that would have to be some heady stuff for these people, the majority of whom are uneducated and lack much theological training.
It’s even worse when the pastor sees himself as a “true prophet.” Not only does he dispense God through his hands. He also literally speaks for God – when he chooses to do so. I can see how gradually, these people begin to believe their own press. They see all their admirers who are kept at a distance by their entourage of body guards and the velvet ropes. They receive the “love offerings” and the card showers and all the words of honor and hype. The people nearest to them are so star-struck that they wouldn’t dream of sharing anything negative, choosing instead to turn a blind eye to anything the pastor does that is rude, arrogant, or inappropriate.
The worst effects seemed to be on the pastor’s children, as they reached adulthood. In fact, my husband and I were talking about this just recently, and we think the turning point at our church was when the pastor’s sons were ordained (in a big elaborate service officiated by a nationally famous preacher flown in for the occasion) and then placed into more authority. Those kids were only 21 and 23 at the time, and neither of them had received any formal seminary education. They’d just graduated with 4-year degrees in areas like business. Yet they were installed as pastors and handed areas of huge responsibility. Neither of them was even remotely mature enough to handle that level of authority, and moreover, it was incredibly arrogant of the pastor to force it on the hapless and powerless congregation.
Anyway, when the two sons took charge, that’s when OUR former church seemed to undergo a significant shift. I think much of the change was due to financial pressures, too. One of the sons was instrumental in ousting some other family members who had been on staff for over 20 years, and we’re fairly certain there was a significant financial payoff to ease their leaving. We think this transaction put the church under major financial strain, and suddenly, when the two boys got married within months of each other, there was additional pressure of supporting two additional households in the style to which the Smith family was accustomed.
This is when the focus on finances increased, to the point where it felt like people were browbeaten for money at every turn. It was when the preaching shifted from broader themes of the Christian life to much talk of “destiny” and success and money.
It’s all so very grievous, when we look back on it, particularly because we know there had been good at that church. It just eventually got overshadowed by the focus on money matters.
Jan,
Sorry to read about your experience; and, apparently similar experiences of others in your community. Sad indeed. I presently do not belong to a church as I’ve not found one which truly preaches the Word and/or is without some kind of somewhat significant error. At least not yet.
Since the subject of money/tithing came up I wanted to jump in and proclaim that tithing is not a Christian doctrine. the NT standard is freewill giving (2 Corinthians 8 & 9). In the OT tithing was never money but grain. Since many insist the “church” — that is, the building itself — is the NT temple (wrong, we are the temple of Holy Spirit) then the OT example of rebuilding the temple was in freewill offerings NOT tithes.
Dr. Russell Kelly does a great job in nailing this false doctrine here:
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/
Charismania and Lee, thanks for your response.s.
Lee, I used to be in fear about tithing and would tithe before even paying my bills. I didn’t want to rob God and this line of thinking came from years of it being drilled into me from the pulpit. Thank God he has set me free in that area. Now I give as the Lord leads. It might even be to a person who has a need and not to a church. Its led by the spirit.
Charismania, You nailed it. Our pastor and his wife had the big name speakers to the church early on. I would name them but I felt the Lord told me not to involve them here. You have heard of all of them. Our pastors saw themselves on the same level and began to feel entitled to live the same lavish lifestyle. They started teaching about prosperity and we even had F___ P___ come and teach us the prosperity doctrine. You can never out give God. We were always asked to sow seeds to reap a harvest. I do believe that principle is true, but they would beat the sheep with it to get bigger and bigger offerings. No surprise, its common in a lot of big charismatic churches.
The turning point from the pastor being a humble servant, was the power, the way people highly esteemed them. No one was allowed to disagree or question anything, or they were asked to leave the church. After all, the pastor heard from God and you were really questioning God. People were not allowed to cultivate hearing the Lord for themselves, they would counsel with the pastor and he would tell them what the Lord was saying. I don’t know how many people didn’t get married because the pastor told them not to. I have friends who told me later that they were afraid to tell the pastor or his wife what they really thought or even open up and tell them any of their own struggles, for fear of being rebuked. One elder had a serious drinking problem that no one ever knew about and his wife was too afraid to ask for help because she thought they would be exposed in front of the church as sinners and asked to leave. She thought the shame would ruin their lives and push her husband into a deep depression, so she suffered silently for years.
The pastor’s children did suffer too. Both of their girls got married to the wrong men. One was in a racially mixed marriage and the other to a man who looked like her dad. Both are divorced today and they are still young adults. I never heard what happened to their son.
If anyone in leadership ever left the church, they never spoke to them or acknowledged them again, thus the pastor’s wife has not spoken to her own sister in many years, since they left to start their own ministry. So the family is torn apart even though they have girls who are the same age. I don’t know how these spiritual leaders who preach the word with such power are not convicted of these serious flaws in their own personal lives. It baffles me how they think they are above everything.
Lee and r180.
I stand amazed at the wisdom of #24 above! Lee! Short of being ex-Mormon yourself, where on earth did you get all that info on Mormons and ‘their’ angel and beliefs?!?
It is soooooooo right along the same lines as what Todd Bently is preaching! Emma/Moroni “angels”. Kind of scarey actually.
r180, one thing that I keep being reminded of is that ‘an evil generation seeks after signs and wonders’. The problem I see with Todd Bently, with IHOP and many strands of the charasmatic church is that the people within it, those really following it hard and heavy are going after the ‘wow’. i.e. the signs and wonders.
They keep thinking that Christians in non-charasmatic churches are just plain ‘ol missing it because we ‘only’ do stuff like witness to unbelievers, read our bibles, sing with all our hearts but… nothing really ‘WOW’. Nothing ‘new’…
The really sad thing is that some day we’ll all stand before the Lord. He’s going to say to some, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” But others … others are going to say to Him, “Now wait a minute! Didn’t we prophecy? Cast out demons? Didn’t we do all kinds of really neat stuff for you?”
You know what He’ll say then. “…I never knew you.”
I see IHOP’s summer camp for kids: I believe it’s a ‘Signs and Wonders’ camp. And about God’s statement about an evil generation seeking after them. Then I think about everyone talking about all the ‘WOW’ stuff happening with Todd Bently, with IHOP, and it makes me very sad to see the church at this point in time so very deceived.
I realize you’re on staff, r180, with IHOP. That, in and of itself, is also sad. Have you cut off your family and friends who disagree with IHOP yet? Why do I ask that?
My son’s on “staff” with IHOP as well. He hasn’t spoken to me since September of last year after s/w “older and wiser” counsel there. (You know, that part about “honor your father and your mother” only apply to parents supporting the IHOP agenda.)
But I guess that’s OK with you since your bible doesn’t specifically say not to do that, right?
SP
We have had this revival hit our city with a loud ‘BOOM BA BAM!’ too.
One of the churches i used to go to has now ceased ALL preaching until further notice. What re they doing instead? PLAYING THE FOOTAGE FROM FLORIDA. week by week….
and the school that is a part of the church… well they are playing it to the children too arnt they!
just terrible.
we had a bible study at our church called ‘biblical revival’ Our pastor simply did a lesson on what the bible says about revival the biblical examples, and the characteristics of them. he inserted no personal opinion, just the word of God.
It was plain to see that the florida outpouring was indeed a spiritual thing, but not the Holy Spirit.
One thing that my sister said to me though, which i thought was such wisdom
” the deception will have two parts to it, those that are decieved into believing it is Gods spirit, and those who know it is not but spend all there time getting into it to try and discredit it”
what she meant was, either way, the poeple take their eyes off the word.
What i endevoured to do was to look into it and test it withthe word to see if it was God. ince i was satisfied it was not of God (and i am well and trruly confident about that!!)
i decided, that was enough, now it is time to turn my attention back to the word. i will try to point out the truth to anyone who will listen, and i will continue to pray for my firneds who are caught up in it all, but i mustnt allow the enemy to distract me with the revival, even if i am not in agreement with it. Let the heathen rage. we can pray for them for that is the most powerful thing we can do, but let us not give all our time to following it just to rip it off. we know it is fake, no doubt, now lets get on our knees and in our words, lest we too be led astray by it.
I cannot even begin to say how intense the last few weeks have been. on the one hand i have finally found a solid bible teaching church and have felt a TRUE REVIVAL in my heart since studying Gods word more than i ever have in my life, and yet on the other hand a deep saddness and watching my friends get swept away with the ‘glory clouds, the BOOM BA BAMS and the wind’
it baffles me.
i thought, isnt he word of God radical enough? i mean, when you get into studying it like we have been, it is truly amazing, youjust want to yell out with joy when you discover new things about it, and God shows you more truths and promises within it, but the people are not satisfied with the word anymore. they want ACTION and excitment and instant gratification.
Anyone who wants a real shake up should listen to David wilkerson “the reproach of the solemn assembly” just google it.
it is a word of wisdom in a time when it all seems to be blowing out the window by ‘the winds of change’
” the deception will have two parts to it, those that are decieved into believing it is Gods spirit, and those who know it is not but spend all there time getting into it to try and discredit it”
I have thought about this before. Satan really wants us distracted more than anything else. I have found myself spending too much time on this. On the other hand, this has led me to search scriptures more and to gain more biblical knowledge as I refute the arguments on the pro-Bentley, pro-modern prophetic, etc. camp.
I think it very important to get the word/Word out; but, I agree there must be balance.
SP,
I have very little knowledge of the LDS; but, I recall a comment made by someone else on a different blog about a year ago and it stuck with me. I simply went to their website looking for some info to quote. Quite a parallel between the Mormon beliefs/practices and those of the ‘modern prophetic.’
SadParent,
I am so sorry for what you are going through. It must be heartbreaking…especially since you’re estranged from your son because of supposed “Christian” things.
I agree with you about, “An evil generation seeks a sign.” This has been rumbling through my thoughts for awhile, now, ever since I started following the Florida “outpouring” and reading things written by its defenders. They all essentially say the same handful of things, the main one being that dramatic “signs and wonders” are supposed to be the norm for Christians, and that if we’re not experiencing those, there is something wrong with our faith.
I personally fell into that trap and was in our “Charismaniac” church for years as a consequence. I tossed aside much of what I knew to be true so that I could embrace the church more fully. Like, I knew the Bible said that we should not treat the rich with favoritism, but I ignored that and soon found myself really liking the idea that we might “look rich” in the eyes of the pastor’s wife so that we could gain more status among the people. Also, I knew that truly great Christians have an attitude of servanthood toward others, and yet I told myself it was OK that the pastor and his family acted like prima donna celebrities who were too important to be bothered.
Why did I set aside the truths of the Bible? Because I thought our church was working “signs and wonders.” I thought that our church’s openness to things like “miracle services” was more in line with Scripture than churches that “just did Christianity as usual.”
Well, that’s wrong.
First of all, when you cut through the hype and the outright lies, you find that the reality of a good portion of the “signs and wonders” is questionable at best. I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but the Todd Bentley meetings are claiming something like 21 resurrections from the dead. As far as I know, NONE of those people has appeared on stage with him yet, fully recovered and able to share their stories. I keep looking for footage of interviews with the previously dead, and the best they’ve shown is an old lady in a hospital bed, oxygen tubes in her nose, talking about how her heart had stopped for 45 minutes. And while yes, absolutely, I think the old lady’s story is excellent and God should receive all the glory for her healing, it still was not quite the caliber of “the dead are raised” story that you’d expect when you hear Todd Bentley say, “This woman was raised from the dead.” Maybe I’m just a stickler, but to me, this connotes that the person had become a TRUE CADAVER, with full rigor mortis, and had been dead – and off of life support! – for many hours.
I mean, all these “raised from the dead” stories – not ONE of them, to the best of my knowledge, involved a body in the funeral home sitting up in its casket.
I’m not trying to discount all the “signs and wonders” in Lakeland. I think the spirit world that Todd dabbles in has power and can do “lying signs and wonders.” I also think, more importantly, that when you get enough desperate, hungry Christians in a room together, where their level of expectations is that high, it’s quite likely that God in His mercy will touch some of them. But this is DESPITE Todd Bentley and NOT because of him.
But shifting one’s Christian faith so that signs and wonders are the number one priority is a gigantic mistake, leading to all kinds of deception.
NZ,
Thanks for your comment.
I agree with you that we must have a balanced approach to thinking about the “revival” going on in Lakeland. This site exists NOT because I am obsessed with Todd Bentley in a negative way, but because I am convinced that thinking and discernment are extremely important. I will keep publishing material that points out what the Word of God says. I believe that there are many people who are being misguided by Bentley’s talk of angels, dreams, visions, and visits to the “third heaven,” and the reason they put up with this stuff is because of the FEELINGS that the Lakeland meetings are producing. More of us need to be speaking out about the truth – how oftentimes the Bible will contradict our feelings. And when this happens, we must stick with the written Word of God, or we will fall for anything (and stand for nothing).
Charismania and NZ,
I live in Florida. I wrote in an earlier post that the same thing happened to the small charismatic church I was attending. In April, shortly after the revival began, the leadership in the church announced they were going to Lakeland and invited everyone to join them. I didn’t feel led to go. When they returned, they decided to impart the fire to the church members and the service began with the pastors laying hands on everyone. I did not have a good feeling about what what happening and neither did a few other people who silently went out the back door. My problem was that I was on the worship team up front playing the guitar, so I had to stay. The whole worship team left the stage and I was doing it myself as everyone was getting the fire, yelling, laughing, falling on the floor, shaking, etc. As soon as I could, I left the stage and I have never been back to the chruch.
The assistant pastor called me and said “its real!” and then he said “everytime there is a new move of God, people who were part of the last move of God reject it.” I guess he meant I was rejecting it because it was different from what we have been used to. I just told him that I didn’t feel comfortable in that environment with people going into a frenzy and laying hands on everyone. He said he would never let that keep him from receiving a “touch” from God. I didn’t want to argue with him by telling him that I didn’t agree that its always a touch from God.
The pastor of the church is a woman, and she said she watches the revival on God TV every night and told the church to get rid of their cable provider and subscribe to Direct TV so they can get God TV themselves. She also stopped having Wednesday night church fellowship and asked everyone to come to her home to watch the revival.
I realize its easy to be drawn into this revival as its a very obsessive decepion. That’s why we have to put on our armor and pray.
I am so thankful to find this blog and others to read what other Christians are saying, because at first … when this revival broke out … I wondered if something was wrong with me for not jumping into it. I wondered if my heart had become so hard that I didn’t enjoy being slain in the spirit anymore. The blogs, You Tube clips and scriptures that people are sharing have been so informative and helpful in showing others the difference between truth and error.
Jan
Hi, Jan…
It truly is strange to find oneself on the “outside looking in” with something like this revival. There was a time in the not-too-distant past when I would have traveled to Florida so I could attend the meetings, and I would have turned a blind eye to the criticisms. Well, at least most of them. Some of the things that Todd Bentley has written and been videotaped saying prior to the start of the Lakeland meetings this past April have been obviously unbiblical and downright WEIRD, even to the most casual observer. I’d like to think I would have at least hesitated to see if he’d repented of those teachings first.
But I can really sympathize with what your church experience must have been like for you! I can only imagine what some of my former church friends are thinking about all this right now. I’m sure they’ve traveled there, and I’m sure they buy into 100%. It would have been tough if we’d still been in that church, to stand practically alone.
I’m thankful, though, that God saw fit to make me love His Word as much as I do. I study it and treasure it, and it was this – the Bible – which helped me see the truth about Charismania.
“”"”"”"”"”" “God, why do I want people to believe in the angel, isn’t it about getting the people to believe in Jesus?”
He said, “The people already believe in Jesus, but the church doesn’t believe in the supernatural.””"”"”"
If his ministry is soley for the church and getting them to believe in Angels(Gal 1vs8), then why are people saying many are getting saved? How can they be saved if his message is not the Gospel of Christ but the ’supernatural’ angels?
I also find it amazing that these people are on such casual terms with the Almighty God that they debate and question him so regular yet they critisise anyone who debates or questions their views!
With so many face to face encounters with Jesus by these folks, there are apparently more Jesus sightings than Elvis sightings of late. Well, there are more sightings of Mary than both put together, of course.
Does Todd put himself on par with Moses (The only man on earth that God said that he would talk face to Face with).
Hi Jan (#54) and everyone. I had a similar experience to what Jan had…I attended an Assembly Of God church for over 16 years. Back in 1997, there was another “revival” in Florida where similar unbiblical manifestations were taking place. Our pastor announced that he, and some of the other leaders of the church, were going to go to Florida to “bring the revival back to our church.” I had been listening to a Christian radio program, and the host of the show played recordings of the “revivals” in Florida, where people were growling like wild animals, a person was “drunk in the spirit” and she couldn’t even remember her name, and people were literally being picked up and thrown down, with no one touching them, and they were saying it was the power of God. I made tapes of the sermons, and comments by concerned Assembly Of God pastors and other people. I also wrote a letter in love, using Scripture to back up my concerns, along with my comments and Scriptures that express what TRUE revival is, and gave this information to one of the pastors. I thought for SURE they would see the truth when they examined the information against the truth of God’s Word, but instead, I was told “you can’t put God in a box”, and if I didn’t agree with the direction that the church was going in, that I should leave. I was co-leading a Bible study at the time, and I gave a presentation of what present day preachers are saying by playing their own words on tape, and then giving them God’s Word for them to see the truth, (but I did NOT include ANYTHING on the information I had about this so-called “revival”) and without saying anything specific, I told them how VERY important it is to compare everything ANYONE says to God’s Word, as it says in Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” I told them how God used Paul to write His Spoken Word and wrote much of the New Testament, and if they compared all he said against God’s Word, how much more should WE examine what people say who claim to speak for God. Later, I told one of the pastors that after attending the church for over 16 years, I was sadly choosing to leave; I did not support their decision to become involved with this “revival.” The main leader of the Bible Study also left, and she was told that we could not tell the women in the Bible Study why we were leaving. I felt like we were abandoning these women, and I cried and prayed for them and others at our church, and trusted God to open their eyes and hearts to the truth of His Word. Jesus said it best when He said in Matthew 12:39,40 “He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days in the heart of the earth.” Jesus said this to the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. What would He say to US, His followers, if our focus gets on to signs and wonders and off of Him, because we have not tested things in light of Scripture. Let’s get back to preaching the pure gospel… we are all sinners in need of a Savior, Jesus, as God in the flesh, lived the perfect, sinless life that we could never live, to become the perfect sacrifice for our sins; He took upon Himself the wrath of God that WE deserve for Our sins. If we accept the fact that He died in our place and was raised from the dead, and are willing to turn from our sins, we are forgiven and cleansed from all sin and our consciences are washed clean. Romans 1:16 says, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.”… THIS is where the power is. Let us also speak the truth in LOVE to believers and non-believers, who have a love for God and do not see the dangers in “revivals” like this. Let us speak to them with a heart filled with compassion and concern for them, not acting arrogant and making them feel stupid for not yet seeing the truth. Some of these websites speaking of Todd Bentley, have many believers speaking out with more than just a righteous anger. They are in fact not showing love or concern for a searching unbeliever or for their brother or sister in Christ, …and the world is watching. Let us do as God’s Word says… “As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.” (Ephesians 4:1 ) Jesus said…”A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34,35 On another, yet related, note, Jan, and all those interested, may want to go to … http://ag.org/top/General.Superintendent/Statement.onRevival.cfm and hear the Assembly of God’s position now on revivals. Even though he does not mention Todd Bentley by name, when he mentions someone speaking about and seeing angels, it is clear that he is referring to Todd Bentley. I was very encouraged to hear what he had to say, and most of you will too, and I pray everyone else will listen carefully to what he has to say about TRUE BIBLICAL revival, because I CARE about YOU. God bless you all.
Concerning the Assembly of God’s statement on revivals… I’m sorry. I must have incorrectly copied the web site, and I hope this is now correct…http://ag.org/top/General-Superintendent./Statement-on-Revival.cfm
I’m sorry. There is still a problem using that information. Please do a search on “AG Statement on Revival”, and there are many web sites you can go to and click on the video to watch and listen to the General Superintendent’s statement. Once again, I am sorry for the confusion.
Amen to your article Charismania!
Also what about
>>I’m releasing it back, to where it all started in 1948
Err, don’t you mean Pentecost?
Living for His Glory
Thanks for that link, have just listened to it. It is encouraging to hear an AG minister say something cautionary, I wish they would be a bit more couragious and hit the nail on the head by saying which revivals they are refering to. However, its a start.
Great post by the way.
God bless
Pete
P.S I particularly liked his reference to angels and Pauls 3rd heaven experience. This does in a way identify the current ‘revival’ as being in question.
To me it seems that Todd Bentley thinks he is surrounded by more angels than the 24 living elders in the book of Revelation.
Speaking of the book of Revelation, apparently Bentley et al have never bothered to read to the end.
Chapter 22
1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city…
…6The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
7″‘Behold, I am coming soon! blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.
8I, John am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
…15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
NOTE: Magicians, idolators and liars are equivalent to murderers in God’s judgement.
Most relevant to this charlatan movement’s openness to “Further Revelation” (see Fresh Fire Ministry ‘Statement of Faith,’ final point http://freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=106&pid=8), is this warning:
18″I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
The best is saved for last! Let us be encouraged!
20He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
The King is coming! Hallelu Yah!
David
thanks for this, it spoke to me:
‘I hear the same rhetoric over and over again: “We’re in a new season!” Why can’t God be doing what He was doing last year (or last decade)? Why does He constantly have to be changing and updating Himself (God 10.0!) for our prophetic pleasure and consumption? Is He not the same yesterday, today, and forever? Why then is He constantly changing His mind and never finishing His last task? The God of Charismania seems rather capricious to me. I picture these churches as being little kids in a cardboard car pretending to be going somewhere and imaginative enough to believe that the car is real.’
I’ve been wondering about this as well AND what is this thing about ‘God is showing up!’ isn’t God with us ALL the time and in our churches, if he is not then we can’t be really Christians…
Pete, you’re welcome…I’m glad you were encouraged by listening to the ‘AG Statement On Revival. ‘ I agree concerning your desire to see them be more courageous and come right out and say who (or is it whom?) they are referring to. And you’re right, ‘it is a start.’ Let’s all just pray that they have the courage to use their authority to bring correction to him. After all, doesn’t God’s Word say in 1 Timothy 1:3 (Paul to Timothy) “As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrine any longer nor to devote themselves to myths…” And 2 Timothy 3:16-4:1-4 “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, Who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of His appearing and His kingdom, I give you this charge:Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke, and encourage- with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead , to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” I’m sorry. My righteous anger is coming to the surface; hell is REAL and Todd Bentley is playing with the eternal destiny of so many precious lives!! But God is in control, and He is the one who draws us to Himself (John 6:44), He is the one who convicts us of sin by His Holy Spirit (John 16:5-11), and He is the one who grants repentance (2 Timothy 2:24-26) I could go on and on because of my concern for others and the lack of people standing up for and defending the truth. One good (?) thing about this “revival” and the one I dealt with in ‘97, is that God has used them to get me into His Word and to appreciate it in an even deeper way, because it becomes SO REAL when you see the things He warns us about, happening right before your eyes…(and Jan (#54), I’m sure you found that to be true in YOUR life as well. As hard as it was for you, (and I know it was, because it was hard when I left after having built relationships with people for over 16 years) I’m sure this “revival” has caused you to dig deeper into His Word and given you an even more intense love for God and His Word, and a realization of just how relevant His Word is for us today, and how important it is for us to study His Word. God bless you, Jan for standing for the truth. I hope you have found a strong Bible preaching church to go to, so that you can be encouraged and grow even stronger in your walk with God and make friends with others who love God and stand for the truth. Believe me. God will use you and what you have been through, to help many others. I have found that to be VERY true in my life. God bless you!) One of my concerns, Pete, and everyone, is this… Is the church becoming too much like the world … becoming “tolerant” of everyone’s choice to think as they want? … And no longer holding God’s Word as our main way to test what is right and wrong? There was a saying back in the ‘97 “revival”, that became popular, and I have heard it mentioned with this one as well…”God offends the mind to reveal the heart.” …As if to say …if we dare to THINK that the manifestations, or any part of this “revival” is NOT of God, then the attitude of our heart is revealed as being judgmental, and we are sinning. And since we don’t want to sin, they expect us to believe that God will act in a way that goes against His own Word and we are just to go along with it and not question it or examine what is being said and done. That is what CULTS do to put you under their control…they try to take away your God-given ability to think on your own and they want you to accept everything they say as the truth! PLEASE let us remember what Jesus said concerning the “signs of the end of the age” in Matthew 24 (Please read the whole chapter.) (Verse 4)… “Watch out that no one deceives you.” …(Verse24)…”For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect-if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time.” …Pete, thank you…I’m glad you enjoyed my comments that I posted, and I appreciate your encouragement. A good word and warning for Todd Bentley is found in I Timothy 1:16 “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.” …(NZ#49) Well said!! We can’t get so focused on this “revival” that we spend more time checking out web sites on this and not enough time in God’s Word and praying for God to open the eyes of our friends and others who get involved in this. I stand guilty…I have spent over 5 hours getting my thoughts together and writing this, but my intention in doing this is to get people to think, and to realize the importance of reading and studying God’s Word. My heart is heavy with concern for those who want to “go and get some,” when they can experience God in such a REAL and POWERFUL way if they would just allow God to reveal Himself to them through His Word. No matter what the overwhelming circumstances in your life, dear reader, God and His Word will become VERY REAL to you if you will only turn to Him. I have been through so much in my life, but through it all I have come to know God in a VERY REAL way because I chose to draw close to Him and to seek comfort, truth, strength, and wisdom from His Word. “Come near to God and He will come near to you.” James 4:8 God bless you, Pete and everyone. Let’s choose to spend more time in God’s Word and carefully examine what he, Todd Bentley, and others say against God’s Word. I close with this verse…”Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the Word of Truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15
Hello again Living for His Glory
You set a great standard with your Scriptural references. We must be equipped with the Word of God in these times, they are a light to our feet, a lamp to our path.
Back in the 90s when the 1st waves of this deception hit, we didnt have the internet in the UK and it felt like we were the only ones standing against it all, however its great today to be able to get on line and see so many Christians like yourself and all those here rightly using Gods word to test the doctrines and practices of Men
That scripture in Timothy 1:16 is quite defining in this current ‘revival’, doctrine is important when it comes to testing the words of men even though they keep telling us to just ‘dive in and question later.’
Anyway, you give a timely reminder, we should make sure we make time to study Gods word rather than study only the words of TB etc. Keep up the good work for the faith, it is refreshing.
Hi, it’s good to see that certain unhealthy issues in these recent “revivals” are addressed. I’m particularly concerned with the aspect that you’re pointing to where Mr. Todd claimed that there was a lack of faith in the supernatural. In my opinion, faith in Christ is already faith in the supernatural, and the obedient walk in Christ is already more than any Christian can take as a challenge – even right through our whole lives. So, as long as we don’t walk in Christ and carry our crosses properly, we should forget more unnecessary and potentially dangerous talk about so-called prophecies etc.
in Christ
Disippelen, Norway
Hi Pete! Thank you again for your words of encouragement. We are in a spiritual battle as we all stand against these “new age” concepts that are increasingly entering the church. Our response, as you well know, must always be to use the Word of God to expose lies and deception. Sharing our opinion won’t change anyone; God’s Word has the power to change their thinking…”As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater, so is My Word that goes out from My mouth: it will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I send it.” Isaiah 55:10 That verse should always give us the confidence to share His Word with others, knowing He WILL use it to accomplish what He desires to do in their hearts and minds, no matter how they may initially respond to what we have to say. Without the Internet as a way for us to connect, we who are standing for the truth and exposing error, would feel like Elijah… he felt like he was all alone, and yet God said ‘there were seven thousand in Israel who had not turned to the false god Baal. ‘ (1 Kings 19:1-18) Have a blessed week, Pete, and continue to use your gift of encouragement and let the light of Christ shine through your words and actions in your place of work. Charismania, I identify with what you had to say… “I for one, used to believe whole heartedly in just about everything that was presented to me as being “Christian prophecy.” …”I know that I, for one, would have a stronger belief in “the prophetic” if I hadn’t seen so much garbage being presented as the “word of the Lord.” As I posted below, (#59) “I attended an Assembly Of God Church for over 16 years,” and I have been given many ‘words from the Lord’ and none of them came to pass. After I became a Christian, God showed me, as I read His Word, that my husband was committing adultry, and that he was going to leave me. …And he did. Many people gave me a ‘word from the Lord’ saying God told them he was coming back. He never came back even though I waited and prayed for him for a long time. My faith would have been shattered if it was only in the words that people gave me supposedly from God. But I came to the point after my church got involved in the “revival” in 1997, of not wanting anything to do with charismatic churches any longer, even though I DO believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as being for today. The focus was on the gifts instead of the Giver of the gifts, and they shifted from experiencing God in His Word to having an “experience,” and justifying the bizarre happenings by saying, “you can’t put God in a box,” instead of testing the spirits and using the truth God’s Word as a way to verify things as being of God or not. Thank you for having this site to keep us updated on what is happening so we are better prepared to “contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.” Jude3 The link you provided for us above also has videos that shed some light on where his visions may be coming from. Click on ‘Todd Bentley Messenger of God? ‘ Parts 1 & 2. Thank you for your site; it’s nice to connect with people who are like-minded. I feel like I’m among friends, and together we can continue to stand for the truth of God’s Word, and lovingly help others and believers to see the truth concerning the dangers of Todd Bentley’s “revival.” We need to do what Jesus told Peter to do…”Feed My lambs”…”Take care of My sheep.”…”Feed My sheep.”… (John 21:15-17) Not only are we to share the Gospel with those who don’t know of His saving grace, but also we are to take care of fellow believers and feed them the truth of His Word to help them grow strong and to protect them against error, and we should do this out of our love for God. God Bless You All <
Hi again Living for His Glory
You have a lovely attitude, Isaiah 55:10 is one of my favs, how unlike the imagined prophecies of men that always appear to return void and unfulfilled!
“”"” it’s nice to connect with people who are like-minded. I feel like I’m among friends, and together we can continue to stand for the truth of God’s Word, and lovingly help others and believers ..”"”"
Ditto!
Take care and thanks for your encouragement again.
(hug)
Great post disippelen, the church does believe in the supernatural, it just doesnt believe in Todd’s angel as much as he would like it too.
Hi Again, Pete… Thank you again for your kind, uplifting words. …..And Isaiah 55:10 is one of my favorites as well. In your words…”How unlike the imagined prophecies of men that always appear to return void and unfulfilled”… It’s a good thing that we live in the age of grace, because according to God’s Word, prophets, or people who “claim” to speak for God, such as Todd Bentley, and prove NOT to be speaking in the name of the LORD, were to be put to DEATH. He gave them no room for error!! They had to be 100% correct 100% of the time!! You correctly posted , … (and great post, by the way), … ” Deuteronomy 18,” which reads…”But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other god’s, must be put to death.” You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.” Deut. 18:20-22 ….Pete, thank you for all your encouraging words to me and to many of us on this site. I pray God richly blesses you in every area of your life, and I hope one day God will allow me to meet and share life with a godly man who is as encouraging and committed to God as you are. You are indeed very special, and I have yet to meet a man as nice and as committed to God as you seem to be. I will keep praying for you, and for God to use you to help your friend see the truth concerning T.B. God Bless You, Pete. (A big hug right back to you!!)
I’ve looked at a bunch of Todd’s footage and maybe I’m missing it or I need to go to a service; where and when does he exalt Jesus? He’s seems to claim anointing and healing and mentions God occasionally although mostly its all about himself. I don’t hear or see Jesus/Yeshua exalted. I am a charismatic and have been involved in a lot of missions and ministry and have experienced the supernatural – both of God and sometimes that which is false or not of God. The one thing that seems true in all that is really a work of God is that God the Father and his son Jesus are exalted. No man or leader is to steal God’s glory! If one reads the transcripts of revivals or spiritual renewals – for example the Keswick conventions; such as the book – Union Meeting for the Promotion of Scriptural Holiness 1874 – that was in Oxford England a few years Keswick. These were week long meetings of Christians from all denominations. They still continue today around the world and are often called Keswick meetings. Hannah Whitehall Smith and her husband were involved in the beginning along with many others from Europe. The contrast is unbelievable. Todd’s anointing and what he is about doesn’t even seem Christian in comparison. Todd just doesn’t seem to preach the Gospel – I have yet to see it. If there is some video footage someone point me to it please!
IHS,
John MacLean
ESV 2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son, in truth and love.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Tv1NCbL7HA
ABC Interview with toddy, cant wait for part 2 to be uploaded.
Thank-you for taking the time to comment on Todd Bentley. I for one believe that as professing Christians, who have been saved by grace and are called to turn from or sin through the working of the Holy spirit in our lives working out our salvation with fear and trembling. How could we not comment on Heresy with-in the visible church of Christ. It would be a crime not to stand for purity of the Scriptures and Doctrine. People who preach, by no means should continue on with out any accountability. I for one do not feel this site is condemning a man but holding him to accountability, any one who teaches will come under scrutiny. We are called to love,but love would mean turning a brother back who has gone astray. When the kings of Israel went astray leading many after false gods and sexual immorality, God still had his faithful remnant. We as his people, can not sit back and not proclaim Jesus Christ death and resurrection. To love is to give the good news that they can save.
All that Todd Bentley is doing is taking away from the Gospel of Christ and causing people to forget what the Bible. You should read Matthew 24:23-28. I think that this Todd Bentley’s revival sounds like to what Christ warned us about.
Stand firm on the truth,
Jennifer J
Jennifer, even so…..God is using this revival. Many “real” Christians are attending it. In fact, most of the people going are pastors and church members who love the Lord. If Todd is off base in his theology, which I believe he is with his extreme supernatural beliefs, then God is able to deal with the man and bring him to the place he needs to be. I believe Todd Bentley is saved and living for Jesus as best he knows how. I don’t believe he is deliberately trying to deceive anyone. We should all continue to lift Todd, his ministry team and this revival up to God in prayer.
Shalom,
Jan
Jan, light and darkness do not appear to be sharing the platform in Todd Bentleys ministry, its darkness only.
Those going love the Lord? Christians going there are forsaking their first love in favour of a different spirit and a different gospel. I’m not judging their heart I’m saying what I’m seeing with my own eyes. They want goosebumps and power. The word of God and The Holy Spirit are constantly mocked in these meetings, but it matters very little to those flocking there.
Todd is not simply off base with his theology, he is off base with his angels and spirit guides, this is not simply theological error, its blatant angelic deception. The theological error is a result of something deeper.
Whether he knows he is deliberately deceiving anyone, this is highly questionable, he slips up far to often in his exaggerated aggressive stories.
Is he to blame for himself being deceived by those who taught him? Yes he is. He is personally responsible for his own actions. He has obviousley been approached with his error by people who really love the lord. He calls them habitants of “heresyland”. I understand he may be brainwashed by the KCPs etc but he will still stand alone and give an account for his own actions. There will be no excuse “It was their fault” for what “I” did.
I doubt he is saved on the basis of what he has said about his demonic possession during his years as ‘a christian’. I have no doubt what he is transferring on to other people. If he ever was saved, he has certainly apotasized since.
Christians, pastors flocking to lakeland are joining a severe apostasy, if they truely loved the Lord they would hear his voice (John 10) and they will KNOW his voice and flock straight back out.
I don’t think its that black and white. I know personally of people here where I live who are totally supporting the revival. I’ve known these people for many years and they are real, honest people who love the Lord.
I try not to be black and white, I also try to maintain the good attitude you and others here have towards them. I am finding it very difficult. My friends are desperate for healing and have been to Trevor Bakers church here in England (The guy who often appears on the platform in TBs meetings). When I see them being not healed but deceived my thoughts turn black and white. I’m working on it.
Also its bedlam in that church and yet as Baker says on the vids, 1500 attend regular to ‘get some’. Well they are getting something and its deceiving them, and its as black and white as that sometimes, I think anyway.
God bless
Hi Jan. Hi Pete. May I please say something concerning your conversations? My mind is racing a mile a minute with so much I want to say to both of you, and I don’t know where to start!! Jan, I think I’ll start with you. I know you said you have some friends that you have known for years supporting this “revival,” but the basis of deciding if this “revival” is of God or not does not depend upon the reputation and character of your friends. They may be wonderful, godly people who love the Lord with all their hearts, but you, or none of us, can determine if this is a move of God by the people who are going there or who are supporting this “revival.” Our basis for determining truth must ALWAYS be the Word of God. It must NEVER be determined by our feelings, because they are always changing. God’s Word is always constant, and we can rely on it, and God’s Holy Spirit to keep us from error and to guide us into all truth. So, let’s look at just a couple of verses to give us wisdom to help us see things the way God would want us to. “…if you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; IDOLATRY, WITCHCRAFT, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissentions, factions and envy; DRUNKENNESS, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that THOSE WHO LIVE LIKE THIS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, GENTLENESS, AND SELF-CONTROL. …(Galations 5:18) According to God’s Word, when we look at Todd’s focus of his ministry being on this angel, Emma, and signs and wonders and not on Christ, then it becomes idolatry, and another gospel. When he invites people to enter through “portals,” or to receive the “impartation” which people do who are involved in the occult, then it clearly has crossed over from being Christian and is now in God’s eyes considered to be in the realm of witchcraft. When he kicks people with his biker boot, or leg drops a pastor, does this really produce the fruit of gentleness? When he is “drunk in the spirit” does this portray self-control and does his behavior glorify God or self? (Whatever you do, do it all for the Glory of God.” (1 Corin. 10:31) (…worship God with reverence and awe…) Heb. 12:28 Also, when we take time to look deeply into the information Charismania has provided for us …Herescope’s Excellent Series on Todd Bentley and Lakeland, and if we look at Todd Bentley through what we know about this movement, there should be NO DOUBT in our minds about whether this “revival”is of God or not. …On another related note, and this is my main point to both you Jan, and to you as well, Pete. …I recently came across an article on the Internet, entitled …Prepared For The Slaughter. The Disarming Of The Church. Even though it was written ten years ago, it CLEARLY still applies to us today, and maybe even more-so! (Please do a “search” on that and read it.) I want to share a portion of two separate comments and make my point. …”Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed;” “…disarm the people;…it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually.” … Jan and Pete, and the Body of Christ, listen up!! What are our most powerful weapons? Discernment and the Word of God. This movement, which is behind this “revival” and the “revival” in the 90’s, talks about “not judging” but what does God’s Word say? ” …I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you.” (1 Corin.5:11-13) So, God is clearly TELLING US TO JUDGE the behavior of someone who claims to be a believer, and some action should be taken by those who are in authority. Do we really want to give up our God- given ability to think and examine what they say and what they do; to discern the spirits and to test them and see if they are of God? This movement also talks about “another sword.” Are we going to abandon the most powerful weapon we have…the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God? “Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, (it’s not against T.B. and this “movement” or “revival”) but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. …Take the helmet of salvation, and the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD” (Eph. 6:10-17) We must value and use our God-given ability to discern the spirits and we MUST NEVER allow experience to rule over God’s Word; we must test all things in light of Scripture. And we must NEVER lose our love or hunger for God’s Word! God Bless You, Jan …Hi Pete. I am SO SORRY you have two friends who are desperately wanting healing, and have only received disappointment. You “ARE trying to maintain a good attitude towards them” (T.B. and others involved) and the only reason you are finding it difficult is because God’s Spirit within you is sounding the alarm to the knowledge of the fact that many people away being drawn away from Christ and the true Gospel of hope and forgiveness. DO NOT silence the voice of the Holy Spirit. DO NOT give up your ability to discern the spirits. CONTINUE to love and treasure God’s Word and “examine the Scriptures”, and, with the love and compassion that I know God has placed in your heart, share your concerns and the truth of God’s Word with your friends and others. Take your stand for what God has shown you, and in love, speak out. Be the watchman giving out the warning, whether they listen or fail to listen. Yes, we must continue to pray for Todd and all involved, but we MUST take a stand and let our voices be heard, because we will ALSO stand before God and answer for the knowledge we have and how we apply it. God Bless You, Pete. I close with this Scripture… “Jesus said, “If you hold to My teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)
“”“Jesus said, “If you hold to My teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” (John 8:32)”"”"
Thank you and AMEN!, LFHG. I needed to be reminded of this Scripture today.
Very encouraging post, as insightful as ever.
(hug)
Hi Pete. …”Show me Your ways, O LORD, teach me Your paths, guide me in Your Truth and teach me, for You are God my Savior, and my hope is in You all day long.” Psalm 25:4,5 …Pete, please know that I am praying for you, that God will CONTINUE to make His Truth known to you concerning this “revival.” I also pray that God will help you to stand STRONG in what He has ALREADY shown you, which you expressed VERY WELL in your post above (#78). I agree with everything you said, and I know that many others will also agree, because we are choosing to keep the Word of God as our sure foundation and our main way to “test all things.” …Concerning your comment about your friends in #80, “”"When I see them being not healed, but deceived my thoughts turn black and white. I’m working on it.”"” Pete, what you are feeling is RIGHTEOUS anger, because you are seeing on more of a personal level, the damage that T.B.’s claims and empty “words from the lord” can cause. DON’T “work on it”; that’s God’s Spirit within you opening your eyes to the truth!! You need to KEEP that righteous anger to help you to continue to see things from GOD”S perspective. This will motivate you to action, so that you will speak the truth in love, because of the clear and strong convictions you have concerning this “revival”. Continue to allow God to use you to share His Word with others, and let your passion for the Truth of God’s Word and seeing ‘the Word of God and the Holy Spirit constantly being mocked at these meetings’, be your driving force. God Bless You, Pete. (hug)
Hi LFHG, thanks for your prayers and also for the Scriptural references that do encourage a lot, I seldomn see scripture used in such a way in these hyped up meetings, so it is refreshing.
Being grounded in the Word of God would protect all from of this traversty. Prayer through Christ and The sword of the Spirit are the only weapons we have or need in standing against mass deception.
Its sad that people are showing thier lack of discernment on such a wide scale.
Hi Pete. You’re welcome, and I will CONTINUE to pray for you. …”"and also for the Scriptural references that do encourage a lot”" …Scripture DOES encourage… “For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE SCRIPTURES we might have hope.” (Romans 15:4) I can’t IMAGINE dealing with this “revival,” or living in this dark world, if we DIDN’T have God’s Word as our sure way to discern truth from error, or to encourage and comfort us, to direct our paths, to convict and restore us, and to give us wisdom to deal with the problems, confusion and chaos that we face in life. “”It’s sad that people are showing their lack of discernment on such a wide scale”" … I COMPLETELY agree; it IS sad. When I watch all the videos on your site, (good choice to add the H.H. ones; he always has a clear way to reveal the error and share the Truth. Great choice to add the J.W. ones as well. Loved and posted on your ‘Lifehouse’ video. Keep up the good work!) …and on other sites, and watch the people in the audience, and see and hear them laughing at the things Todd Bentley says, it makes ME sad, too. I am also SHOCKED; they should CLEARLY be able to realize that the God of the Bible would NOT be telling him to do these things to people, because they go against the very NATURE and WORD of our God! Instead, they should be responding with DISGUST, when they hear him or when they observe his drunken behavior, which in NO WAY brings Glory to our God! As you CLEARLY stated, “I seldom see scripture used in such a way in these hyped up meetings…” and then we realize WHY they have such a lack of discernment. Sadly that shows they must NOT be reading and studying God’s Word the way they should be, and they don’t HEAR the Word of God preached often, and when they DO hear it, it is usually taken out of context or things are added to or taken from It. As much as some of them may have a genuine love for God, the series Charismania has provided for us … “Herescope’s Excellent Series On Todd Bentley…” and H.H. would say something similar to the following… “THEY GIVE IN TO PEER PRESSURE (watching everyone else laugh and being afraid to think on their own and question it or just get up and walk out, they reason by saying, “Well, everyone else is accepting it, so it must be okay.”) So THEY laugh as well, and drown out, and continue to silence the voice of the Holy Spirit, as He points out errors and sounds the alarm within their hearts. …AND THE EXPECTATIONS OF MEN … As they are emotionally and spiritually manipulated by the repetitious and hypnotic music, and are put into altered states of consciousness, THEY BECOME HIGHLY SUGGESTABLE AND WILL BELIEVE JUST ABOUT ANYTHING THEY ARE TOLD.” So they are conditioned to respond to what is happening; as there senses become dulled, they open themselves up to the “supernatural experiences” and they begin to convulse and laugh, etc., immitating ‘pagan practices’. PEOPLE who hear the life-giving and life-changing REAL Word of God are broken over sin in their lives and respond by falling on their FACES out of conviction and repentance before our Holy, Awesome God, and ‘will not imitate the detestable ways of pagan nations’ …I remember a great analogy I heard when I first became a Christian, to show us how to discern truth from error… When people are trained to tell the difference between genuine and counterfeit $, they are first put into a room where all they are told to do is to examine and feel the GENUINE paper bills, rather than the counterfeit; they get to know the GENUINE so well, that when they are THEN given a MIXTURE of the genuine and the counterfeit, they can tell the difference. People need to READ and STUDY GOD’S WORD, and TEST things in light of Scripture and they would HAVE discernment when they listen to T.B. and others and NOT BE DECEIVED!! We just need to keep praying for ALL involved. … Pete, one last word out of concern for you… PLEASE be sure you spend a LOT of time in God’s Word, because with you having your video ministry, and spending a lot of time viewing these disturbing T.B. videos, they will have a depressing influence upon your spirit. PLEASE for your sake, don’t allow Satan to pull you away from your main focus… to be in the Presence of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, to become more like Him, and continue to know more OF Him and His Ways and His Truth, BY BEING IN HIS WORD. Please remember… “Cast ALL YOUR ANXIETY ON HIM (concerning this “revival,” your friends involved in this, and any other concerns you may have,) because HE CARES FOR YOU. Be self-controlled AND ALERT. YOUR ENEMY THE DEVIL PROWLS AROUND LIKE A ROARING LION LOOKING FOR SOMEONE TO DEVOUR. RESIST HIM, STANDING FIRM IN THE FAITH…” (1 Peter 5:8,9) God Bless You, Pete.