Todd Bentley and the Other “Prophets” Get to Question God…But We’d Better Not Question Them!
June 10, 2008 by charismania
From the “comments” section of this post, reader Pete made the following observation:
I also find it amazing that these people [Todd Bentley and his fellow "prophets"] are on such casual terms with the Almighty God that they debate and question him so regular yet they critisise anyone who debates or questions their views!
I thought this was an incredibly astute observation. Something about Todd’s (and other “prophets’”) conversations with “God” has always struck me as a bit “off.” I couldn’t quite figure it out, but now that I think about this commenter’s words, I realize what it is:
If these guys were TRULY conversing with the God of the universe – the Holy Almighty God of the Bible, the God Who created the universe, the God Who numbers every hair on our head - they would never be so carefree or bold. Never. Instead of questioning and arguing with God, they would experience awe, respect, and fear, uttering with the (true) prophet Isaiah, “Woe is me!”
At the very least, they ought to be giving ”God’s” remarks the same unquestioning respect and acceptance that they are now demanding from their own congregants.
Posted in Biblical truth, Blogroll, Charisma, Charisma Magazine, Elijah list, Lakeland Outpouring, Todd Bentley, Word of Faith, abuse, angels, anointing, authority, cessation, charismania, charismatic, christian, church, church money, cult, deception, discernment, equality, evil, excellence, fake degree, false prophecy, false prophet, favoritism, financial abuse, fraud, inappropriate, lakeland revival, pentecostal, perfection, pimp, prophecy, prophetic movement, racism, spiritual abuse, spiritual favoritism | Tagged abuse, angels, anointing, authority, Biblical truth, Blogroll, cessation, Charisma, Charisma Magazine, charismania, charismatic, christian, church, church money, cult, deception, discernment, documentation, Elijah list, equality, evil, excellence, fake degree, false miracle, false prophecy, false prophet, favoritism, financial abuse, Florida, florida outpouring, fraud, honesty, inappropriate, kenneth copeland, Lakeland, Lakeland Outpouring, lakeland revival, lawsuit, lie, miracle, pentecostal, perfection, pimp, proof, prophecy, prophetic movement, raised from the dead, revival, spiritual abuse, spiritual favoritism | Tagged abuse, spiritual favoritism | Tagged Charisma, Todd Bentley, true prophet, truth, verification, verify, Word of Faith | 53 Comments
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Amen! Isaiah was undone!!!
The part that struck me as odd is when Todd makes remarks like “I told God” instead of “I asked God.” Another thing I’ve noticed he says quite often is “come up to “my” pulpit.”
Its very serious stuff. For some reason God allows people to operate in deception in his name and doesn’t stop it. My thoughts are that he gives them ample time to repent and get it right, because he loves them so much. It is scriptural that false prophets would come in signs and wonders and God warns us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.
Jan,
You said –
I was struck by those things too!
The first thing, the way he describes his conversations with “God,” makes him seem awfully bold and practically rude to God at times. I mean, supposedly, we are talking about the God of the universe here, who supposedly has decided to graciously reveal Himself to Todd Bentley. Todd Bentley has God Almighty telling him things!
I don’t know about you guys, but if I were confident enough that God was speaking to me – confident enough to hold meetings where I’d preach sermons to thousands of people, sermons that were built around the things that “God told me” – I’d certainly be a bit more respectful and reverent with the way I talked back to God. You’d simply HAVE to be! After all, this is the God of the universe, the omnipotent, all-knowing, all-seeing GOD Who is so incredibly fearsome and awe-inspiring that any person who sees Him must die.
So either Todd is putting us on, and he actually has NOT had these conversations with God, or else he had them with a spiritual being that he THINKS is God but is ACTUALLY NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE.
I’m not sure which it is. Sometimes as I watch, I am convinced that Todd is lying. Sometimes, though, I think he believes the stuff he is saying, and the god that he is talking about is just not the God Who revealed Himself to us in Scripture.
And what is up with the “MY pulpit” thing???
I noticed that right off. So did my husband. We were watching a youtube clip together – the one where Todd called the guy over with the laptop and the guy was supposedly so overcome by the “anointing” that he simply had to fall down when he got close to the pulpit…but he was NOT so overcome that he was unable to cushion the laptop above his stomach as he fell. And more than once in that clip alone, Todd referred to the “anointing” as being around HIS pulpit. He said it in a way that came across as bragging, self-satisfied, smug, and boastful. He LIKED the idea that somehow the “anointing” (or whatever that power was that caused people to fall down and convulse when they got close to that lecturn) had something to do with HIM.
That was disgusting.
Though I see what you are driving at with this post, there needs to be a bit more clarification and thought on your part to make this a better post. There were times in the Bible when men wrestled and debated with God … for instance: Jacob wrestling with God (Gen 32:22-31), Abraham bargaining with God over Sodom’s fate (Gen 18), Job arguing with God over fairness, etc. In each of these instances God allowed these men to engage Himself in interaction/dialog. So it’s not as if debating with God is a sin, because God will win every time and teach us a lesson in the process. But on the other hand there was Saul’s arrogance, Solomon’s downfall, Uzziah’s presumption (2 Chron 26:16-21), etc. where righteous men fell hard because of pride. So would you say that we must always approach God with a fear and trembling that makes us fearful of bargaining with Him, or perhaps should the fear of the Lord (the beginning of wisdom) enable us to respectfully yet boldly come before the throne of Grace? I don’t have this figured out yet, but I want to find a balance between righteous fear of the Lord (being undone before His majesty) and boldness (that enables me to approach Him boldly yet without pride/pretense).
David,
Sure, there are instances in Scripture where men argued with God. But there is something so rudely familiar and disrespectful about the way Todd Bentley presents HIS conversations with God…it’s just a different tone than the respectful exchanges we see recorded in the Bible.
Moreover, Jesus Himself, who knew God as his “Abba Father,” spoke to God in an extremely formal and polite fashion. I’ve always been blown away by Jesus’ prayer recorded in John 17, for instance. I mean, certainly, if anyone had the “right” to dialogue casually with God, it would have been Jesus, His Son, right? Yet Jesus does not model that “Hey, Dude! God!” tone that seems to be typical of the modern-day “prophets.”
This post was not intended as a scholarly presentation on this subject, anyway. It was more just a lone observation to throw out there.
But I definitely think that the way the “God” of Todd’s conversations interacts with Todd – and how different this “God” is from the God of Scripture – are just more clues “hidden in plain site” for anyone who can read the Bible. That was the point of this post.
Ohh, I understand what the purpose of the post is. I didn’t mean to be rude or anything. I was just mulling over the subject myself and thought you might have some insights of your own. I know there is a vernacular language approach that can be seen as wrong if we are approaching the God of the universe, but I know that God looks at the heart. So though words may seem flippant they not necessarily are. I speak Russian (which has both formal and informal pronouns) and we use the informal pronouns to address God in prayer. While it can be disrespectful to Russian elderly (or strangers) to use the informal pronouns, the use of the informal pronouns shows more of an intimate friendly connection with others. So this is why we use it with God… not because we are being disrespectful but because we are being close with God. But English doesn’t have this distinction, so we have to look more at tone and implications than just at word level. But I am just babbling. And yes I do think Todd is being very flippant with his language.
PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO……….. if you haven’t already.
Todd said the 13th resurrection was a man who went to Heaven and he heard Todd’s voice pulling him out of Heaven. This is from an unverified email that Bentley got. The whole crowd went wild. They believe anything Todd Bentley tells them.
http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/2008/06/raised-from-dead-story-from-unverified.html
Tonight they said he had a half an hour visitation from an angel in his room before coming out for the service and that he was covered in gold dust. Funny, both God TV and Fresh Fire Ministries suddenly had technical problems and went off the air the entire time he spoke about the angel. Then suddenly both came back on the air when he was finished talking about his supernatural experience.
They probably didn’t want any of it put on You Tube or available for anyone to copy.
David,
I understand what you’re saying, and you’re right to point out that our English language has its limitations…and also, that through Jesus’ work on the cross, we DO have free and “informal” access to God the Father now.
I just don’t think that this freedom and informality are the same thing as Todd’s casual, “I’m on the same level” (or even, “I’m better than”) tone that he uses when he describes his conversations with “God.”
I know that “tone” is something very subjective, difficult to articulate and document. I wish I could do a better job of explaining what I’m talking about.
But I still find it ironic (even if I can’t explain what I mean very well) that Todd Bentley and his ilk expect unquestioning acceptance of THEIR words, when they feel so free to dialogue with God in such a way that He is reduced to some sort of bargaining puppet.
Actually, you are doing a good job analyzing this issue. Don’t worry about perfect articulation, it comes with thought and dialog… which is why I am weeding out this issue myself.
I think that though we, as Christians, do have a boldness and informal access to God through prayer … we have no right to assume that God is somehow a “bargaining puppet” (as you said), available to answer our every whim and desire. I used to pray for God to give me reasonable things in my life, and though I wasn’t asking for outlandish things I was still treating God as a dispenser of things I needed. On the same token, I used to exert my prophetic gift with a bit of pride, attempting to show people that I heard from God better than others. But I found that when I setup idols in my life above God (love interests, money, things, etc), everything that I thought I was hearing from God was automatically filtered through those idols. So if Todd is setting up major idols in his life (not considering the apparency of him being a compulsive liar) then if he is considering himself on par and buddy-buddy with the God of the universe then the very original sin of Satan is at work in his life. And whatever he hears, whether from God or from demons, will be filtered through this idol of vain pride.
I think back to the days when I heard Kenneth Copeland talking to God and rebuking God and how the people in the crowd laughed, they really should have cried and repented for giving this man even 5 minutes of their time. ugh.
Anyway…I dont know where to post so sorry if I am gategrashing here but..
Last night Todd finally used the Bible to preach a sermon out of the book of Job, he spoke about the anointing and Jobs ‘Honey cloud and butter’ and how Job wished to be back there. He then used Job to show how we should all seek the anointing and we shouldnt stand for anything less, he, as usual, spoke how he has been under such a strong anointing that the devil couldnt even touch his car!
So anyway, my point is, he used the very book in the Bible that demonstrates that even anointed men of God (like Job) DO SUFFER! That the will of God is not always for people to be prosperous and healed all the time. That we go through trials and testings and yet even through them God is still the one to rebuke and bless us. We can still be chosen of God even when there is no fruit on the vine.
How can they use and abuse such a beautiful book like Job? Christians have for centuries taken comfort from it. Where does Job roll around on the floor barking, twitching and acting all strange? They turn the story around so badly to offer an alternative view that swings directly in the face of Word of the truth.
Their misuse of the word of God is apalling and is further recognition of their error.
Has anyone checked out a John Crowder..apparently Todd is listed as a speaker at one of his conferences in the fall..John Crowders disrepect of our dear Lord and Saviour is dispicable…He uses drug language all the time and blasphemes Jesus..and people flock to him too…he too is on you tube…I just cannot belive the disrespect toward God..but then again it has been coming for a long time now..the flippancy has been around but it does not make it right..and I would pray that these people will be brought to repentance and start to revere God…
Pete,
I suppose nothing should surprise me, but I have to say, I’m SHOCKED that Todd would preach from the book of Job. That’s some master Scripture-twisting!
And where, oh WHERE, does the word “anointing” appear in Job? Where does the subject of the “anointing,” even in general terms, come up?
I feel like Todd Bentley is trying to lead people to worship the “anointing.” That mysterious “substance” (atmosphere, thickness, glory cloud, whatever they want to call it) is what is getting all of the attention at those meetings. Sure, they can SAY that “it’s all about Jesus.” But if you listen and watch, it’s not. It’s about the “anointing,” which I’m growing more and more convinced is little more than Todd practicing a form of Kundalini.
Jana,
Thanks for the info. I’ll have to check out John Crowder. I wonder if Todd wil hold to his scheduled appearances there.
Wow. I just went to youtube and found this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5YJPGaH_n0&feature=related
Uh, typically I have a very good sense of humor. Sometimes I even find humor in things that others would not consider funny. But I do not get this video. I think it was meant as a joke…but what sort of joke? And does anybody know if this is really John Crowder? It looks very much like him. I’m fairly certain, in fact, that it IS him, after watching a couple of other videos on youtube where he is preaching.
(Here’s one of him “preaching”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec91wvUY7Yo&feature=related )
Okay, no one responded to my post about this video in post #7 regarding the 13th resurrection. Did any of you watch it?
http://enjoyingthejourney.blogspot.com/2008/06/raised-from-dead-story-from-unverified.html
Did any of you catch what happened last night? Todd Bentley apparently had a 30 minute vision of an angel just before the meeting. They said he came out of the room covered in gold dust. When he began to share about it on stage, both Fresh Fire Ministries and GOD TV suddenly went off the air stating technical problems. When he finised sharing about it both websites were back on-line streaming the meeting without any further technical issues.
Hi, Jan…
Sorry I missed your comment earlier. I just watched the link. I had a couple of immediate thoughts.
First of all, I noticed right off how, when the email writer talked about playing GodTV’s coverage of the revival at the wake, he/she was careful to add that they refused to have the brother embalmed for his funeral.
I thought that was extremely fishy. I mean, if God (and the “anointing” that is supposedly transferred via TV from these meetings) is strong enough to bring a truly dead person back to life, wouldn’t this God be strong enough to restore all the cadaver’s “innards” to their former state?
Why would it matter if the person were enbalmed or not? Why??
One other thing. I find it jarringly disgusting that the email places so much attention on Todd Bentley and seems to give a lot of the credit for this “resurrection” to Todd (i.e., the email writer says, “My brother woke up praising God and Reverend Todd Bentley,” as well as, “He could hear Todd Bentley’s voice calling him out of heaven”).
Obviously, if this email were genuine, Todd would have no control over what the author had written. But he easily could have made sure to distance himself from seeming to take some of the credit for this “miracle”! He could have redirected the crowd to God and His glory. But he did not do so.
And the last line (that he shared) from the email said that after the dead man sat up in his coffin, “All the people at that funeral home began screaming and crying for more fire.”
What??
More fire???
So really, these people are not praising God. They’re praising Todd and “the fire.”
I’m so disgusted.
Nevertheless, Jan – thanks for sharing this one. I think I feel a whole ‘nother post coming on.
Gold dust… saw this on another post… only scripture that mentions gold dust is when Moses came out of the mountain and found the Isrealites worshipping the golden calf, he had it turned in the fire and ground to dust and then made the people drink it. Seems that the only scriptural testing is idolitry related……… what do you think?
Post 14, I have seen that video before and yes that is him. It is a continuation of his token jesus junk. Gettin’ high on jesus (small “j” because I am not sure which jesus this is) and I personally take offense to it just as I do when someone uses the Lords name in vain.
There is another video where he and someone else is token in a meeting and making a “joke” out of it.
Hi, Layla, and welcome to the site! Thanks for your comments.
Yeah, I was pretty sure that the video was the same John Crowder. Same name, of course, and then there’s the same devil-beard. But I just still can’t understand why he’d do something like that. I agree with you – this simply is another “Jesus,” another “God” – one of their own making. It’s certainly NOT the God of the Bible.
I had the same thought about gold dust and idolatry. Interesting. I’ve been wondering all along why the thing with the gold dust, gemstones, and so forth is automatically “known” to be from heaven or from angels. Let’s just say for a moment that such a thing really were happening in a miraculous, non-human fashion. (As in, Patricia King and her ilk aren’t actually heading off to Michael’s, Hobby Lobby, or Walmart to buy glitter before these meetings, which strikes me as a whole LOT more likely!
) Let’s just assume for a moment that all this stuff is really happening just as they’re reporting it to us.
If this stuff is really happening, I still for the life of me cannot figure out why they automatically “KNOW” that this is from the Lord. Nowhere in the Bible do we see anything like this. Nowhere. And there’s nothing that would indicate such a thing would be from God, at least not from the God of the Bible.
Also, why aren’t they curious? Why don’t they test the stuff to see what it is, chemically speaking? I saw a clip on the blog called, “Clarity Rediscovered” (http://clarityrediscovered.blogspot.com), and Patricia King and some other guy were squealing excitedly about how this preacher dude was covered in “diamond dust.” They were eagerly trying to brush it off of him and onto the pages of their Bibles.
This all struck me as so weird! Why wouldn’t they be brushing some of it into a test tube or onto a microscope slide? Or even into a plastic baggie, like the cops do with crime scene evidence? Why don’t they have ANY natural curiosity about these substances at all?
I personally think it’s because they know very well what all this stuff is. It’s from the craft aisle at Walmart. Heh.
Charismania,
I know of a sister in the Lord who went to a conference and she reported seeing the gold dust all over the room. She scooped some into a napkin so that she could save it and bring it home with her. When she got to her hotel room, she opened the napkin and found that it had all disappeared. There was nothing in the napkin, but she knows that she put some in it from the meeting. I wasn’t there, so I can’t verify it, but this person is very reliable and honest.
I think the main point I wanted to bring to the table in my prior post aside from the gold dust, is the fact that God TV and Fresh Fire Ministries both went off the air simultaneously at the same exact time when Todd Bentley began to share his angel visitation last night. The broadcast was off for quite a while and God TV posted that they were having technical difficulties and not airing the live stream anymore. Suddenly, after Todd finished talking about the angel encounter, both sites started streaming the revival again without any further interruption.
Was that just a fluke or was it on purpose? I think it was done purposely.
Jan
Charismania,
I read someplace on the web that that some gold dust had been tested and it was plastic and not even a gold color. I also read recently that there was an admission to the planting of the gem stones by the pastor, all a type of seed, to get things going.
My feeling is that if this is another jesus, another gospel, false teaching and that even the scriptures tells us that there will be false signs and wonders… well, there you go.
I think the mis-interpretation of this scripture is one of the basic thoughts of why they think this is of the Lord. Vs 13 especially.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
If it is all done under the “name of Jesus” then it must be from Him.
Jan,
Steve Spader (?) if that is the pastor of the Ignite Church where this started has said there will be no more mention of the angel Emma and maybe that’s how they are stopping it from being mentioned (outside the venue itself) by cutting the link for a bit.
Hi Layla,
I’m sure it was someone more “powerful” then Steve Spader. It was probably the God TV network. They are committed to this thing right now and don’t want to rock the boat of their credibility or create any room for criticism. Recently Todd Bentley shared that he was under a lot of pressue not to share his supernatural experiences anymore at the revival, and he attributed it to an attack from Satan. Maybe some higher-ups in the scheme of things talked to him about it. His reply the other night was that this is part of his testimony and the revival is based on it, so he isn’t going to exclude it in is preaching.
That makes more sense. I wonder if Bob Jones had anything to do with it as well….
Bob Jones also believes in the same angels and manifestatins that Todd does. He says he closes his eyes and wills himself to the third heaven. Bob Jones was at the revival last month on stage with Todd, and he mentioned that three angels were present, Emma, Grace and the Winds of Change. He believes the angel that started the Florida outpouring is the Winds of Change. Bob Jones is part of and behind the whole third wave movement
Bob Jone was also the most notorious of the Kansas city prophets. He is the one who caused women to strip naked in his office and be ‘naked before the Lord’ He was rejected by all in past days.
No wonder he has an attraction to emma the female angel, sounds like one of his fantasies to me, I wonder if he’s led her into his office yet.
disclaimer…btw, that was just a bad joke at the end, I dont really believe it to be the case teehee
Yes I know all about Bob Jones, et al. I actually left a church that had one group of people into the third wave, prophetic movement, IHOP-ese and in fact I led worship for the antiphonal singing etc. of the IHOP style of worship and then on the other side it was and is a Purpose Driven Church.
Yee Gads zooks… thank you Lord for opening my eyes.
I believe the Lord is using all this deception to winnow and sort, and there WILL be a time when He says “OK, It’s done now” and there will be a restoration of the fear and awe of His holy name again.
It will be a terrifying thing for those on the wrong side of the fence, and very awesome for those on the right side.
He will not be mocked forever.
Layla & all,
When I first heard about Lakeland, and started investigating it, the Lord kept bringing to my mind’s eye a picture of Israel worshiping the golden calf. Drunkenness, orgies, and every form of licentious behavior. I saw this repeatedly. A little research on “golden calf” makes it all the more interesting (Hint). But it ties in well with the gold dust, IMO. Very interesting.
Dave
I am amazed at the hysteria on this blogsite. What seems to be passing here as discernment “seems to me” more like a spirit of suspiscion; which is the counterfeit to true spiritual discernment found in 1Cor. 12:10 gifts. But I forgot the gifts are not for today right (sarcasm), so how can Biblical discernment still be operating?
Much of what I’ve read here is really a misunderstanding and an unfamiliarity with things of the Spirit. For the most part the world goes to the new age to learn these things; because the church by and large has “ceded” this to them; but it is our inheritance as His children and God is restoring that fullness to the body of Christ today.
Many of the “signs” mentioned here such as gold dust are merely the “signs and wonders” spoken of in the New Testament, but signs point to something other than themselves; ultimately to Jesus and what He is doing in the earth today.
Concerning manifestastions; the Bible does not give an “approved list,” the test is always fruit. In the 1st Great Awakening in the 17th century with Jonathan Edwards he wrote extensively on this subject, it is available to read today. Many of the comments I’ve read here could be answered by understanding the history of revival in our nation snce its founding. We have a rich history of moves of God (they were all spoken against in their day) in America. Everything that we see happening today has occured numerous times throughout our history.
One of the manifestations of the flesh spoken out against by Jesus is lukewarmness (Rev. 3); yet the church is infested with it, but I’ve not read a single post here complaining against this widespread infection of lukewarmness in the body of Christ. The harm caused by this manifestation of the flesh has by and large doomed an entire generation to hell because of lack of a godly testimony of Jesus.
It is certainly okay and good to question what is happening and be like the Bereans and search it out in the scriptures; but the demonizing of other believers is ungodly and lacks love. As the months progress with the present “move of God” leaders and theologians will comment and write position papers; in the mean time we should be respectful of others who name the name of Jesus and pray that their testimony or teaching not mislead any from our Great Lord and Savior jesus Christ.
Paul thanks for your concern and I think you raise some valuble points.
I find it interesting that you say “fruit” should be checked, I agree. It is of little wonder then that people become suspicious (and righfully so) when they see Todd Bentley kneeing a man in the groin, punching a woman in the face and dead legging a pastor. To whom would you credit such “fruit”?
After listing the fruit of the Spirit, The works of the flesh are listed, ’sensuality’ is one of them. Dont you see this whole thing as appealing to the sensuality of people? They need to “feel” they dont care for caution and certainly dont test thew spirits, if it ‘feels good’ then they want it.
Christians also are not merely being suspicious when they ask for evidence for the so called resurrections. Thomas asked for proof of Jesus resurrection (Luke 20:25), he wasnt accused of being suspicious or being a ‘heresy hunter’ or a Judas. He was given ample evidence. It is the absolute NORM in scripture for Christians to be given resuurection proof. Luke 11 says Jesus purposely took his followers to Lazarus tomb so that they could see the evidence for themselves. Its not suspicion but wisdom that calls for evidence.
I agree with you when you say it is good to ask questions, but you then seem to undermine this with the rest of your statements. also if its good to ask questions, why is no one at thes meetings asking questions ?
Maybe you have seen a lack of love in some people who demonise these things, but here at this site I would suggest you are not seeing a lack of love but a demonstration of love. If you love someone you tell them if their house is on fire. Or as James says “snatch your brother from the fire”
Also you may be misunderstanding anxiety and thinking its a lack of love? Maybe Jesus words that Many will come saying they have performed miracles in his name but he will turn them away (matt 7 21) is a cause for anxiety in times like this? Jesus wasnt lacking love when he said these words, he was merely stating a fact. He called for caution.
Could you document what you are refering to when you say a lot of things here are based on a misunderstanding? Then we can clear it up and repent if the need be. I’d appreciate your help here.
Lukewarmness of Christians is often seen by their response to Gods word, they make it secondary to the tradition and doctrine of men, they have a casual view of God, no desire to see how he wants things done. I would submit that many of those who are falling over and experiencing the twitching etc are infact luke warm.
Johnathan edwards always identified outbreaks of these type of manifestations as being fleshly outbursts. It did surprise me when they appealed to him for support of the modern day ‘outpouring’.
What do you think of Bob Jones and his ‘anointing’?
Should we test the prophets? 1st Corinth appears to say we definately should Chapter 14:29. Not to mention countless other scriptures that tell us to test the prophets.
Anyway, thanks again for your post, in Christ with you
Pete
paul,
Thanks for your comment. I would echo everything that Pete wrote above (thanks, Pete!). He pretty much covered everything.
The only thing I might add would be that I think it’s interesting you bring up New Age teachings as offering up a level of the supernatural experiences that we Christians “ought” to be having. I would disagree.
The Bible simply does not say this. The Bible is very silent about pursuing these sorts of experiences. And it’s my belief that if these things were essential parts of the Christian life, God would have explicitly told us to seek after them. But instead, He essentially told us the opposite, during the many times, for instance, when Jesus told the people that it was “an evil generation that seeks after a sign.”
In fact, after reading extensively about New Age teachings and practices recently, I would humbly submit to you that using experiences or FEELINGS as a standard (the way that some folks will say, “I went to Florida, and even though I disagree with some teachings, I felt the ‘anointing,’ so I know it’s of God” ) is the ultimate New Age practice.
Just because a minister uses the name of Jesus, that does not mean that he is speaking of the Jesus of the Bible. Todd’s Jesus cavorts with him in dreams and visions and tells him a lot of stuff that doesn’t come true.
Yet people believe in Todd’s Jesus – and are deceived that it is the actual Jesus of history and the Bible – because of what Todd’s meetings make them FEEL. People feel a sense of elation (often described as “fire” or a burning in their spines…research kundalini and see where this might be coming from, since it’s NOT Scriptural!), and they “fall out under the power.”
So yeah, these folks are experiencing something supernatural. But it’s not necessarily from the Lord God Almighty. It’s from the “Lord” who tells Todd to kick people in the face.
If it were so very easy to discern “the presence of the Lord” from false Christs, why would Jesus have bothered warning the Apostles to take care that no one deceive them? If it were always so easy to sniff out deception, there’d be no need for warnings.
paul,
One further thought…
I’m sorry that you think this site is unkind in some way. I honestly have nothing personal against anyone, except perhaps some residual anger toward the callousness and the arrogance of our former pastor and his family. (But the Lord is even dealing with that right now, as I am realizing more and more that the guy and his family are merely living what they saw modeled for them from their own earlier days, which is – sadly – what they think “Christianity” is all about. So in a way, they are just as deceived as anyone else.)
I mean no sense of unkindness or hatred whatsoever. I have nothing but concern – and great SADNESS – for the folks who are currently where I myself used to be. I sincerely am sorry that you are reading those things into the words here. This site is just the product of our own hard journey and what the Lord has taught us along the way.
Blessings to you!
To All,
I don’t think any of us should try to convince the people drawn into the Lakeland outpouring that’s its not real. Something is happening in Lakeland and its VERY real.
When my charismatic church leadership went to Lakeland, they came back and stopped church as usual and made Lakeland the focus. They called the entire body up front to have it imparted to them and the whole service went crazy with people getting the ‘fire.”
I called and spoke to the worship leader, who is also the asst. Pastor, and explained to him my reservations about the revival and what had happened Sunday in church. I explained what I had read about Bentley, his visions, angels, the third heaven, and other supernatural experiences. The asst. Pastor said the anointing was very strong in Lakeland, so it was God. He went back to Lakeland again for another weekend, and called my signifcant other to say that it was real because the anointing was very strong. He based it all on his ‘feelings” and never once checked out what Todd Bentley really believes or teaches.
Then the senior Pastor of the church called me after she heard I was leaving. I told her we had decided that we couldn’t participate in what was going on in the church services, that it made us feel uncomfortable and we were leaving. I never brought up Lakeland because I didn’t want to focus on it. I assured her that we loved everyone and there was nothing personal. She said she was very sad to see us go and then began to defend the revival and said “Peter Wagner endorses it and says its God.” I didn’t want to get into any kind of debate or defense with her, so I just told her that I still loved her and got off the phone.
I really don’t think those caught up in all of this hoopala want to hear anything we have to say, so its best to walk in love and walk away. Trying to reason with them isn’t going to do anything but bring frustration and confusion. Of course, we will look like the bad guy.
God Bless,
Jan
Pete, I don’t know where you are getting your information. lets see if I can at least answer a few of your comments. concerning my comments on the new age practices: If you read carefully I did not say that we should be participating in them. They operate in the “spirit” illegally and by their own manipulitation and rebellion; on the other hand it is part of our inheritance as sons and daughters of God. Their practices are counterfeit; there cannot be a counterfeit without the authentic (no one counterfeits 3 dollar bills as there is no real 3 dollar bill) because the devil is not a creative being, but can only copy what God has done or is doing. An example is that the new age worships angels, and seeks them out ultimately falling for demons disguised as “angels of Light.” Here again the spiritual gift of discerning of spirits is what is needed.
It seems that on blogsites like this and others there is a greater fear in being deceived by the devil than a corresponding faith to be blessed by God. So the statements in my other post were purposely general as I was not responding to a single blogpost, but what I saw as an overall “reaction” to something that was unfamiliar to many of the participants here. I think humilty is needed all the way around (myself included) in that we are all discussing a topic where there is precious little experience beyond “normal church life” I spoke to someone recently that had been a Christian for 25 years and they had no idea that the presence of God could be sensed (felt) or that it could be normative. It is this sort of lack of experience in the things of the Holy Spirit which I am addressing here. I don’t blame the person, but their religious system has not discipled them well.
To equate Todd’s teaching and ministry with the Hindu-Yoga idea of Kundalini is quite absurd. This is an example of the latest rage in the Hate-Todd sites this week. Many “so-called” experts have no idea of either kundalini or authentic touch by the Holy Spirit. The people who are experts in any field are those who are practioners and researchers in their field. When I hear people throwing this sort of terminology around I realize they just read it in another heresy-hunter site somewhere. It is kinda like a group of podiatrists (foot doctor) commenting and ridiculing the latest heart surjury techniques; sure their all doctors, but they are not practioners in the field they are claiming to be experts in. I’m listening to what all are saying; but I for one will get my “expert” advice from someone in the field, not a “cut and paster” from the internet. But from someone’s heart who burns for more of Jesus (yes I can say that Luke 24:32) and to see revival sweep the nations resulting in a massive harvest of souls.
Hi, Jan -
I really get what you’re saying. I know how my mind was made up when I was in the midst of this kind of thinking. There is no convincing or “arguing” anyone into the truth – it’s got to come first of all from the Holy Spirit.
I’ve never said that the Lakeland stuff isn’t real. I believe that there is definitely some sort of power at work, and I agree with you, it’s a REAL power. What I don’t think is so real, though, are most of the healings and the “resurrections.” The “raisings from the dead” ought to be very, very easy to document, if they were genuine. The fact that not one of those people has come forth with a death certificate to demonstrate a genuine “resurrection” (along with complete healing!) speaks volumes, much more powerfully than any email that Todd could read to the crowd.
I believe it’s a good idea to talk about the things that are NOT real (like some of the reported miracles), all the while not minimizing that there is a spiritual power at work there…and while some of it may indeed be from God, I think there’s way too much New Age stuff mixed in.
Paul I will try to be brief (but doubt I will be), its after midnight here.
first thanks for your reply, I know these replies take up time so I appreciate it.
I never addressed the new age movement or manifestations associated with the New Age in my reply. I specifically addressed only what was happening in this modern ‘out pouring’ so if you ever get time, you may want to use these as a point of reference in your reponse.
I guess I am claiming that what we are seeing in this ‘outpouring’ is actually a counterfiet of the genuine article.
They have to ‘pass on’ their spirits, unlike the genuine Holy Spirit who is omnipresent and can act quite independantly in bringing revival to all our lands. This Bentley thing, in my understanding is a counterfiet ’spirit’ that is passing on ‘angels’ one to another. These angels are not omnipresent and cannot read hearts, therefore they, by nature, would require that willing people would travel to them.
The claims of healing are counterfiet. Jesus did not partially heal anyone or raise only those who were not really dead yet. He fully restored dead people to life and fully healed all ailments. The counterfiet of this would be speaking in Jesus name and failing to do as he did, Jesus did not pass on fuzzy feelings, he restored life and health immediatley. Not only believers, but unbelievers where raised and healed to.
The prophets are counterfiet. Bob Jones did get women to strip naked, using their vulnerability and their desire to please God, he thus has demonstrated his perverse nature. Paul told us to reject such people (1Corinth5), yet Todd happily receives his ‘mantle’ from him. Bob is a demonstrated false prophet anyway, so is Paul Cain et al. Counterfiets.
The fruit of their spirit is counterfiet. I already spoke about the spiritual voilence.
Jesus did not tell us to only be on guard for those on the outside (new age etc), he said men would rise up amongst us and twist the word of God to their own destruction.
Who would you say are the counterfiet mentioned in Matt 7 vs 21? Who today fit this criteria? You already said that its not your traditional church, who is it?
Also if these people in Matt 7:21 who casting out demons and performing signs and wonders in Jesus name appeared in these modern ‘pass it on’ revivals, do you think for one minute that the people would recognise them for being counterfiet?
I am not anti Holy Spirit. He magnified Christ in my life and made him very real to me, convicting me of sin, bringing me to my knees in repentence and setting me free from a cult. I am a total believer in the work of the Holy Spirit. Naturally, conviction and repentence and salvation in Christ alone is merely the ‘dregs’ to these people who would much rather us be twitching, barking, and screaming in Todds meetings.
It may not be good enough for those who want warm fuzzies, but for me I need nothing else but Christ.
P.S Since leaving a cult I have since spent years being very active in a penticostal church but have now resigned to fellowship in a Bible based rather than in a total experience based church. You may want to consider these thngs before assuming that you are talking to people who believe the Holy spirit is not for today.
God bless,Paul, sorry for hogging the thread which otherwise very interesting.
I find myself agreeing a lot with you Jan
paul,
I’m sorry that I inflamed you with my remark about kundalini. I did not “cut and paste” anything from any “heresy hunter” sites. I’ve just been on a sincere quest to figure out what it was that knocked me to the ground at our former church…and knocked hundreds of others to the ground…and felt really good…but never produced any truly Godly fruit.
I mean, it was remarkable – you had our pastor laying hands on people (similar to the way Todd does), and people would fall backward to be caught by the catchers. Oftentimes the pastor would prophesy over them. My husband experienced several such “prophecies.”
But here’s the thing – NONE of this stuff ever seemed to happen. None of the prophecies ever seemed to come true, and the people who would crash to the ground in the arms of the catchers would get up off the floor and exhibit no real change in their lifestyles, after some time had passed. Our former church had a LARGE group of folks who were liars and downright con men, who thought that if they simply said something, then it would have to come true.
So I began to believe that what was going on was NOT God or the Holy Spirit. How could it be, if the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, and the pastor was not speaking the truth and neither were the folks whom he was touching? How could it be God, when the teachings were backward and lopsided and very different from Scripture?
Once I figured out that it for sure was not the God of the Bible, that’s when I went on my quest to figure out what “it” was. And that’s when I came upon the studies about kundalini.
If you look at all the similarities, they are striking. In fact, there is NOTHING in the Bible that looks even remotely like the “laying on of hands” done by our former pastor and folks like Todd. People in the Bible didn’t fall backward, they didn’t twitch, they didn’t pass out (except hold onto enough of their faculties to be able to cushion an expensive laptop from their fall?
). Moreover, we are not expressly instructed to seek this sort of “prayer line” experience. The “laying on of hands” spoken of in the Bible seemed to have more to do with a commissioning for specific ministry service, NOT just random people in a line.
So anyway, there is nothing in the Bible that resembles the “pass the fire” sort of thing that is going on in Bentley’s meetings. But kundalini – man, you could practically take the list and think that someone had gone to one of the revival meetings and just described what they saw! The whole bit about the spine, and fire, and burning in the spine – it’s all remarkably similar. Eerily similar.
So that’s where my kundalini remarks came from. But I’m sorry they offended you.
This also, by the way, is NOT a “hate Todd” site. I don’t have any PERSONAL opinions about Todd. I do know that many of his teachings are blatantly extrabiblical or downright ANTI-biblical. But this site is not about “hating” Todd. It’s about finding the truth, wherever that may lead us. Even if it forces us to admit that we have been deceived.
Good post! I also wanted to say that this is not a hate Todd site. I don’t believe anyone one here is being critical or feels hate or any animosity towards Todd or any of his friends. We are all seekers of the truth. It just happens that we are are all in agreement that what we see going on in Lakeland is not 100% biblical, so we are trying to piece it all together and make sense of it.
I also want to point out that not all manifestations are false. I have been healed several times from ministers laying hands on me. I can remember 2 specific times that it was an instant miracle.
As for people seeking out prophets for a “word” from God. This has always disturbed me. The Lord speaks to us directly. It may not be in our time, or when we want a word, but he does speak to us when its necessary. The Lord spoke specific words to me that came to pass. I knew it was a word of knowledge when it came. I don’t want to discredit prophets, but I’ve seen an abuse with people seeking words for them and living their lives according to what the prophets tell them. I believe it can be a form of witchcraft or sorcery, like getting predictions from fortune tellers.
Could someone please explain to me the rationale, Scripture, whatever where the teaching that Satan and demons can’t do anything original but only something counterfeited of the Holy Spirit comes from? That is a teachng I heard in the church I was in too and I never believed it to be true. But I have never heard the basis for it.
It looks like I missed quite a bit here yesterday! I’m in agreement with the whole kundalini thing. I’m convinced Bentley is in fact imparting kundalini. Whether he’s doing this knowingly or unknowingly only the omniscient Jehovah God can answer.
Cheryl U,
I have always heard that the devil and his demons are copy cats of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. In other words there are fortune tellers who demonstrate a counterfiet word of knowledge and prophesy. There is sorcery which is a form of black magic (witchcraft) which causes supernatural things to happen. Edgar Cayce was known as the sleeping prophet and he would go into a trance and dream about people’s specific illnesses and how to cure them. He even spoke of “Jesus” and “God.” If not discerning, a person could get caught in the trap of believing these people and become a part of their deception.
I don’t think there is a specific scripture about these occurrances except that the Bible warns us about it. I haven’t looked them up to give specific scriptures, but I know the Bible says its witchcraft and an abomination and God hates it. Remember Moses’ miracles were duplicated by the sorcerors when Moses was giving pharoh signs to let Israel go? For every supernatural sign God did through Moses, the sorcerors had one too.
It seems like many Christians today are seeking out “seers” and “prophets” to prophesy over them and tell them the future and the answers to all their problems. It seems like prophetic words are more sought after then ever before. What happened to prayer and fasting when you need to hear a word from the Lord? People have become too lazy.
Jan said,
“The Lord spoke specific words to me that came to pass. I knew it was a word of knowledge when it came.
Oh… wow!… I just realized, by your statement, that any word that I have received through the Holy Spirit to me personally and that I have kept to myself has come to pass, except one to date, where as “words” that I have received from others have NOT come to pass.
Eye opener for me
BREAKING NEWS!
Todd Bentley was just interviewed LIVE on Fox News by Geraldo. Geraldo basically called him on the medical reports and wants proof of where the offering money is going. It was obvious that Geraldo thinks Todd is a big phoney. He asked Todd to leave the medical reports and IRS statements with him. They are going to research where the offering money is being spent and the validity of the medical reports. Another reporter said she wanted more proof then someone saying they had an illness and now they are healed. She said “how do you know if someone’s arm was really broken just because they said it was?” Where is the proof? Yay! People are speaking out on the media. Bentley looked totally confused and disoriented as Geraldo questioned him about money and the validity of the healings.
If anyone here gets a chance, please read this article.
http://www.revivalschool.com/leaving3.html
Have any of you ever heard of Andrew Strom? Who is he? What do you know about him? Is he credible? Should we take him seriously?
Jan,
I think the article should be taken seriously from what I understand. Not everyone agrees with all of Andrew Strom’s theology, but I haven’t heard anyone doubt that what he said is the truth. I have seen this article linked to elsewhere several times in the past. I could be wrong, but I think it is legit.
Jan thanks for the news on Geraldo, I’m really pleased to see it on youtube. Hope he investigates the evidence and does a quick response to it.
The link you provided is interesting, it appears from that story that A Strom is on a journey out of error. There are somethings questionable but overall its a great start for him.
Charismania, I’m not inflamed, nor taking anything said here personal. I’m troubled by the numerous blogsites that are making outrageous claims and accusations regarding the Lakeland Outpouring. We as the body of Christ should be able to discuss our differences without demonizing one another (after all we have much to discuss since there are over 22,000 Protestant denominations in the U.S.). I’ve read numerous posts where Todd is called a false prophet, religious hypocrite, demonized, a liar, greedy for money etc. etc. Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.” I’m not suggesting we don’t critique or question; but Jesus has warned that we are to weigh our words carefully, especially when confronting another believer. I’m not seeing that restraint in this thread or the many others dedicated to this topic. It seems slanderous to me, yet all in the name of preserving doctrinal purity. I find it very similar to the way the Pharisees of the 1st century reacted to Jesus “unorthodox” teaching and ministry methods—remember he was accused of being demonized as well. Which brings me back to the accusation of Todd somehow releasing the “kundalini” spirit rather than the Holy Spirit. The fact that there are striking similarities is not proof positive, but means that all those effected are human beings reacting to outward stimuli. The way we determine is of course true spiritual discernment (gift of the Holy Spirit 1Cor. 12) to identify the source. Let me give you an analogy to explain my point about source; if you have a TV satellite dish and want to receive programming from a certain channel; you adjust the dish to receive the signal from the station you are desiring, they become the source of the signal you are receiving. But if you turn the dish you can receive other channels as well. If we have our hearts (dish) turned toward Jesus should we not expect to receive a blessing from Him, if we ask Him for bread will we receive a stone? Or is Satan more adept at deceiving, than God is at blessing? This is what I feel underlies much of what this and other blogsites operate from; that our first reaction is not faith and trust while making a Godly discernment but instead fear. I place the blame on teachers and pastors in the body of Christ who propagate this faithless approach to unfamiliar things. Last thought, the whole purpose of the counterfeit is to pass off as genuine; it would be absurd to have a counterfeit not appear “remarkably similar.”
What John Crowder teaches is sick I discovered this quite by accident, He is a heretic, no doubt about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJpqWZkBMZQ
I find it unbelievable that christians accept this filth. The Great Delusion is here, It horrifies me it is going to get worse.
We must pray and work towards the salvation of as many as we can- while we still can.
What also amazes me is that people expect me not to speak out when people like this claim to be Christians.
The Bible plainly told us they were coming and what they would do.
It cannot be a coincidence that they pray for “fire” and we are told to snatch men from it!
Anyone who has not read their Bible and heeded the warnings do so before it is too late.!
Here is something truly prophetic – not like the phoney stuff from the Eli jah List. It shows us plainly what is happening in the “church” today. Thank God some people are still reading the Bible and heeding it!
But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.
Be merciful to those who doubt, snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Jude 1:17-23 (ANIV)
Excellent point, that I have never really thought of. These casual almost cavalier conversation Bentley and those he associates with seem to debate iwth God, question, and yet, if we call into question any of their alleged visitation, messages, tactics, we are told several things, don’t criticize, judge or “touch the anointed. The Hinns, Copelands and the Jesse Duplantis’ of this world refuse any correction for their enumerated heresies and false miracle serives, but we are supposed to be silent, and my favorite comments are …”We don’t know everything about God, or God works in mysterious ways. YES HE Does. But HIS Spirit NEVER would recommend we body salm, leg drop or kick someone i the face in orde to release his Power. To insunate that He does is beyond reprehensible. I just don’t understand for the life of me, where the discernment is from the Ignited Church leadership, that refuses to examine and/ or correct this, but God help us if this “anointing” is really transferable…if someone where to act in a violent matter against one of my brethren…Oh Lord help me, it would take a real miracle from above to not return the “favor” myself.
Seek the truth through His Word and not the power of miracles.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3566516/Todd-Bentley-Dark-Night-of-the-Soul-Kundalini-Awakening-MYSTICAL-SEEKERS-
TODD BENTLEY~ THE NEW BREED AND THE false ANOINTING~ JOEL’S ARMY
Jacksonville, Fl. June 24, 2008
Dear Saints
William Branham’s Jesus Only, Latter Rain, angel healing doctrines was rejected as heresy by all major established Pentecostal Churches. It has returned with many of the grandsons preachers receiving these unscriptural teachings because of miracles.
At the same time of Branham’s ministry there were many men blazing a trail across the nation preaching the healing message, that the Bible is God’s Word and He can back up His Word through Miracles. And many brought the message to the church and it was received. I BELIEVE IN MIRACLES TOO.
However, the Spirit and the word will always agree. There is a very powerful evil spirit of Kundalini moving through the church. “Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness”. 2 Thess. 2:9-12. KJV
Look at this film and weep for the Church. Is this coming to your Church?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwlRisYyGAI
I think you will agree that the above clip looks as though these people were in an insane asylum instead of a church. The sleeping church is totally unprepared for this unleashing of evil spirits and many souls will end up in hell because of the spiritual blindness of the leaders.
There is an evil working within the Christian that will destroy it unless men and women repent and ask the Lord Jesus to reveal His truth to the believers. THE WOLF IS IN THE SHEEP PEN.
It is the love of the truth and Jesus that will get you into His Kingdom. Jesus can and will do miracles but the sign that must be discerned in last days are those who have a sign and wonders ministry. We must test the spirits to see if they be of God. See this scripture.
“And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles , which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty,”( Rev 16:13-14). KJV
Hi all, cant stop but wanted you to know that there is a FULL 1 hour cross talk discussion on this revival on you tube…
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sto2Rvui11k
at last some sensible pastors on the air!
Hope everyone is doing well