I can hardly keep track any longer, but I think Todd Bentley and his Lakeland “Revival” (or “Outpouring”) are claiming that so far, something like 22 people have been raised from the dead.
I’ve already done a couple of posts about the nebulous nature of these “resurrection” stories. And I’m still waiting for a genuine documented case of a cadaver in full rigor mortis truly “coming back to life” again. As much as I believe that God absolutely can do anything He chooses to do, and as much as I believe that it is literally NOTHING for Him to speak merely a word and call forth all the billions of dead people from their graves, even if their ashes had been scattered 200 years ago, I cannot help but be skeptical about these Lakeland stories.
First of all, I think if such things like these purported “resurrections” were truly happening, our secular news media, its anti-Christian bias notwithstanding, would sit up and pay attention.
But far more telling is how quiet our friends within the CHRISTIAN media have been about these things. As I’ve said, where is Charisma magaazine in all of this? Why aren’t they right there, asking the hard questions and TRULY “building people’s faith” by showing the hard facts behind these stories? These publications have resources, they have reporters, they have people who could ferret out the truth. If they chose to.
But apparently, they are NOT choosing to. I find this sad beyond words.
Here is a video of Todd Bentley as he shares the thirteenth “resurrection” story. Perhaps this video will help to explain why nobody from the news media – secular OR Christian – has had much to say about these many cadavers supposedly “raised from the dead.”
Check it out, and then share your thoughts in a comment below. Here is my take on this particular “resurrection” story:
First of all, I noticed right off how, when the email writer talked about playing GodTV’s coverage of the revival at the wake, he/she was careful to add that they refused to have the brother embalmed for his funeral.
I thought that was extremely fishy. I mean, if God (and the “anointing” that is supposedly transferred via TV from these meetings) is strong enough to bring a truly dead person back to life, wouldn’t this God be strong enough to restore all the cadaver’s “innards” to their former state?
Why would it matter if the person were enbalmed or not? Why??
One other thing. I find it jarringly disgusting that the email places so much attention on Todd Bentley and seems to give a lot of the credit for this “resurrection” to Todd (i.e., the email writer says, “My brother woke up praising God and Reverend Todd Bentley,” as well as, “He could hear Todd Bentley’s voice calling him out of heaven”).
Obviously, if this email were genuine, Todd would have no control over what the author had written. But he easily could have made sure to distance himself from seeming to take some of the credit for this “miracle”! He could have redirected the crowd to God and His glory. But he did not do so.
And the last line (that he shared) from the email said that after the dead man sat up in his coffin, “All the people at that funeral home began screaming and crying for more fire.”
What??
More fire???
So really, these people are not praising God. They’re praising Todd and “the fire.”
I’m so disgusted.
Back in January ‘08, a chilean man was found cold and still by his family who thought he was dead and took him to the funeral home. At the wake he sat up in his coffin (no faith healer involved). It was ALL over the news. And this guy had never even been declared dead by a doctor.
If this 13th ‘arising’ took place on a person who had been officially declared dead, the media would be ALL over it even more than the chilean guy. I’m with you, I’m still looking to see a healing in Lakeland that isn’t remotely subjective………..someone with Down’s syndrome miraculously healed, an amputee regrowing a limb, a quadriplegic walking.
I saw the end of Bentley’s schtick last night. Like someone else said, I can’t believe a lightning bolt hasn’t hit that guy yet. The offering was disgusting….tellling people they need to sow into it in order to gain the benefit. What a creep.
[...] Todd Bentley Video Discussing the Thirteenth “Resurrection” of the Dead at Lakeland Meetings http://charismania.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/todd-bentley-video-discussing-the-thirteenth-resurrectio... [...]
Where are these peoples brain? Isn’t it amazing…. how deceived thay are? Even this has to be from the Lord… turned them over to their own deception.
Wow, come Lord Jesus, come!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OH, & btw, I live in Oregon and this is suppose to spread to Albany, home of E-list. Can’t wait to see how many people get dragged into this one from the Pacific Northwest.
If there is documented, actual real live resurrections from the dead, why aren’t those people quickly flown to the revival to talk about it? I mean, people are flying there from all over the world, so if a person was raised from the dead, why NOT come to share their experience? You would think they would feel COMPELLED to share what God has done for them, if for no other reason but to help others in their faith. The revival can support a few plane tickets for these people and it would benefit the revival to have personal testimonies.
If an actual documented resurrection had occurred from this revival, you better believe the news media would be reporting about it.
Jan,
This is what I’ve been saying all along – if these stories are true just as they’ve been reported (like this thirteenth “resurrection” shared via email), then wouldn’t at least ONE of these folks have shown up on stage by now? With screen shots of their death certificate beamed on the big screen for the whole audience (and the world) to see? With video from the doctors who treated them?
Someone posted a link to a news story about the old lady who was supposedly raised from the dead. I think it was CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network?) who reported it. It was a good enough story, but HARDLY the dramatic thing that people think of when they hear, “raised from the dead.” While in the hospital being treated for a heart condition, this lady had lost her vital signs for 45 minutes, or some such thing, and then was revived. Very, VERY cool that she was “brought back to life.” But it’s still not the same as some guy sitting up in his coffin days after having a doctor sign his death certificate.
And even the lady who’d been non-responsive for 45 minutes did not seem like she’d been actually healed of her ailments. She was still lying in a hospital bed, hooked up to oxygen.
But again, like I said, it is still a great story, just the way the facts happened. It’s just NOT what I would call a “resurrection,” and it’s not HALF as dramatic as the vague and unverified stories, such as the one shared in the email.
If the emailed story actually happened, wouldn’t the funeral home staff have something to say about it? Who could keep quiet about such a thing?
And does it make any sense at all that the family of the previously dead guy would have the main reaction of praising Todd Bentley and “the fire”?
Yes, you are right. I’m just confirming that I believe the same thing that you do. We have been in this Charismatic movement a long time and like you said, in the past we accepted all of these false teachings and believed in the supernatural. For some reason, this time around … our eyes are open and we aren’t jumping into the river of hysterical manifestations.
I think part of the reason why more of us are not getting dazzled by this “outpouring” is that the claims are so much more extreme, and it’s more obvious that Todd Bentley is intent on drawing attention to himself rather than solely to the Lord.
The stories that have come out of these meetings give me the gut feeling that they are at best highly exaggerated, and at worst, outright lies. Like you say, Jan, there is NO reason to think that the Lakeland folks wouldn’t fork over money for plane tickets to fly in the “resurrected” folks. Of course they would!
The fact that they HAVE NOT pretty much means (in my mind) that they CANNOT. And that would be because these stories were not true the way they were reported. Perhaps there was an element of truth to them, but strip away the hype and the fluff, and I’d bet money that what we’re left with is a pale shadow of a genuine “resurrection.”
Thank you for posting the video and exposing the deception behind the “Florida Revival.”
Benny Hinn is a hyper-heretic, false prophet, and false healer. He, too, has claimed resurrections from the dead, but he refuses to provide proof and allow Christians to “test all things” and “try the spirits” (1 Thessalonians 5:21; 1 John 4:1).
Like Benny Hinn and other “faith healers,” Todd Bentley is not above scrutiny. He needs to be held Biblically accountable for his actions, claims, and teachings.
Therefore, Christians should put Todd Bentley to the Biblical test. As a suggestion, once he arrives in a U.S. city or foreign country, take him and his entourage to the nearest hospital, emergency room, or cemetery. If Bentley has the true, New Testament gift of healing, the bedridden and lame will walk; the diseased will be healed; amputees will grow new limbs; glass eyes will be replaced with new eyeballs; children confined to wheelchairs with twisted bodies will be made whole; the incurable will be miraculously cured; broken bodies will be mended; the blind will see; the deaf will hear; the dead will be raised to life–not next week or next year, but IMMEDIATELY!
If Todd Bentley fails the Biblical test, take him back to his truck or airplane and say, “Bye-bye.”
Where in the Bible does it say that when Jesus healed someone, they remained partially blind, partially diseased, or walked away limping? It doesn’t.
Had people worn glasses in Jesus’ day, would He have healed their illnesses, then allow them to walk away wearing their glasses? Of course not.
But during a “Florida Revival,” or a Benny Hinn “healing crusade,” people walk on-stage wearing glasses, get “slain” and “healed” of a variety of illnesses, then walk off the stage wearing their glasses.
Sometimes, it’s the simple things that make a big difference.
And in the case of the current “revival” in Lakeland, a man walked on-stage with a glass eye and two amputated legs. While he claimed he could see “light” and that one of his legs had grown an “inch,” he left the stage still wearing his glass eye and prosthetics.
This is so terribly sad.
Finally, the following Scriptures provide a detailed account of what happened when Jesus Christ healed someone, and when God healed someone through the Apostles:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them (Matthew 11:15).
Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other (Matthew 12:13).
And when the men of that place had knowledge of Him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto Him all that were diseased; and besought Him that they might only touch the hem of His garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole (Matthew 14:35-36).
And great multitudes came unto Him, having with them those that were lame, blind, dumb, maimed, and many others, and cast them down at Jesus’ feet; and He healed them (Matthew 15:30).
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached (Luke 7:22).
And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number, to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them. Also the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all being healed (Acts 5:14-16).
For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed (Acts 8:7).
No crutches. No wheelchairs. No pain. No gimmicks. No deception. No waiting period. No if’s, and’s or but’s. And, no excuses. They were made “perfectly whole,” as only Jesus could do.
When the “faith healers” are tested by the clear-cut examples in Scripture, they fail miserably.
The wicked flee when no one is pursuing, but the righteous are bold as a lion (Proverbs 28:1).
Remain steadfast in the Lord, and pray. Jesus will return…
Why are all the “healings” of the variety that are easy to claim but difficult to prove? For instance, has anyone brought their parents and grandparents on stage to be cured of Alzheimers?
There are millions of people in America that have Alzheimer’s dementia. Why aren’t Bentley’s handlers bringing such patients on stage? They are truly people in need of healing.
Hi, Bud -
Thanks for your comment. Many good observations there. You are so right about how we desperately need to look to Scriptures and practice discernment.
Tobias -
Welcome to the site! I’ve always wondered the same thing. You have umpteen people getting healed of back and neck pain (or saying they are), while the quadraplegics and the people with glass eyes go home unchanged.
Guys & Gals,
Thanks for a sane and mentally stable site here. Your comments and insights are refreshing after reading, seeing, hearing all the hype and hyperbole about TB.
Dave
Hi, Dave, and thanks for visiting the site. Thanks also for your kind words.
To God be the glory!
Would someone send Bentley an e-mail telling him that Jesus wants him to be quiet?
Hi Tobias:
For years, many Christians have been conditioned to accept anything that comes down the pike–no matter how far-out or ridiculous. Part of that conditioning process is to lift-up, admire and adore false prophets, downplay their false prophecies with a grin and shrug, brush the false prophecies off as simple mistakes, then concentrate on “all of the good things” the false prophet does.
Faith healers” use what I term as a “subtle conditioning process” on their followers, which is similar to the mind-games used by the cults. This process is intermingled with Scripture twisting, new “revelations” from “God,” intimidation (i.e., “Don’t attack God’s anointed”), flattery, and convincing talk.
Cautiously and methodically, false teachers tactfully condition the believer with elaborate, but false words. As the conditioning process takes effect, the mind of the believer becomes clouded and confused, resulting in a shipwrecked faith (1 Timothy 1:18-19) or worst, a total denial of Jesus Christ. The conditioning process is deception within deception, and sets the stage for deeper, darker deception.
This is extremely dangerous territory for the Christian to be wandering around in. It opens the door wide open for the acceptance of all forms of deception, and shuts the door on Scriptural commands to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21); test the spirits (1 John 4:1); defend the faith (Jude 3), and proper interpretation of the Bible (2 Timothy 2:15).
Now, couple the conditioning process with a “faith healer” and his or her deceptive agenda, and you have a deadly combination that spells doom for the believer, as well as those searching for truth.
Note that most of the claimed “healings” are internal (i.e., cancer, diabetes, arthritis, etc.), while none of the “healings” are external (i.e., amputated limbs, young and old confined to wheelchairs because of muscular dystrophy, spina bifida, auto-accidents, etc.). Unfortunately, these precious people leave the crusades the same way they came in–suffering and dying.
During a “healing” crusade, internal healings cannot be verified on camera, and the faith healers know it. Obviously, alzheimers originates internally, but is recognized externally. Generally, people suffering from alzheimers or other brain diseases are “prayed for” in the rear of the building or avoided altogether.
However, if they are prayed for on stage or publicly–and they aren’t healed immediately–the faith healer has a pocket full of excuses to suppress the viewers’ doubts, such as, “It wasn’t God’s timing” or “There wasn’t enough faith” or “It might be a few days before the healing takes effect.”
Since my ministry began in the early 1980’s, most of the faith healers I have seen use a “protective disclaimer” to wiggle out of taking responsibility for their actions. They claim to have the “gift of healing.” But when the gift fails miserably, they reach into their pockets for excuses.
And when the excuses run out, they simply refuse to be accountable–first to God, then to the body of Christ. After all, they have enough conditioned followers to carry them through and speak out on their behalf, so why bother answering questions from the “heresy hunters” and those who “attack God’s anointed”?
And many people who suffer internally or externally are conditioned by the faith healers to “claim” their healing and believe they are healed–regardless of how serious their ailments and diseases are.
As sad as it is, I refer you to this “YouTube” video of a Florida Revival telecast ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ckcypjGby4 ). Beginning at 3:12, you will see a woman who was paralyzed from a car accident, and confined to a wheelchair. Todd Bentley prays for her, calls out his “healing team,” and states that the “power of God is gonna come right through your spine.”
Bentley prayed for a re-creation of the woman’s nerves in her spine and brain, “right now, in the name of Jesus,” he said. He prayed and prayed and prayed for the woman, but at the end of the video the woman remained in her wheelchair.
Next, Todd Bentley turned his attention to an elderly woman confined in a wheelchair. After prayer, she did rise out of the wheelchair (with the assistance of the catchers, that is). She walked around slowly with a very noticeable limp, with Bentley’s catchers one step behind.
Jesus didn’t use catchers. His Apostles didn’t use catchers; they didn’t have to, for obvious reasons. But faith healers’ use catchers to prevent injuries during the process of falling backwards. This alone should be enough to prove that God is not a part of a faith healer’s profession.
While I don’t doubt the sincerity of the two women or the others in wheelchairs, I am confident that if those women had been in the midst of Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago, they would have been healed immediately–without the pomp and fanfare.
I am not ashamed to say that I cried while watching the video, and suffered from an acute case of righteous indignation afterwards. Christians need to get concerned and get involved. I pray that God will raise up more fearless Christians, and give them a baptism of boldness to speak the truth in love, preach the word, and defend the faith.
The false prophets, false teachers, and false healers of this world will fall, and will kneel before the King of kings and the Lord of lords. And Jesus will say to them,
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness” (Matthew 7:21-23).
God bless,
Bud
PS: Thanks, Charismania…
Excellent post and comments.
The only thing I want to add/emphasise is the complete lack of hard facts. I have yet to see any names of people who have supposedly been “healed” at Lakeland, let alone those who have been raised from the dead. Given the claims of thousands of healings, surely they could find at least a few willing to go public.
Hi Charismania:
I share your concerns about the lack of coverage from the secular media and, most of all, the Christian media. But that’s to be expected. Those who have provided coverage on faith healers over the years may be overwhelmed and burned out, and I can certainly understand why.
The faith healers are coming out of the woodwork, so to say, and they are training others to carry their heretical messages and methods throughout the world.
Todd Bentley is “imparting” stuff to his followers and producing mini-Bentley’s all over the place.
Yikes!
However, we know that God is in-charge, and I have a gut-feeling that something to the tune of “public exposure” is coming.
In the meantime, the Lord is raising up Christian bloggers to get the truth out and expose deception.
Praise the Lord!
I haven’t had the time to read all the articles and posts on your blog. So, if the following has been addressed, I plead “innocent” in my failure to check everything out.
Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, Steven Strang, founder of “Charisma” magazine, supports Todd Bentley and the current revival taking place in Lakeland, Florida. Here are some links to his “Strang Report” articles which will shed more light on the subject.
http://www.strangreport.com/2008/05/my-observations-of-outpouring-in.html
http://www.strangreport.com/2008/05/long-term-effects-of-revival.html
In the articles, Strang terms the Lakeland Revival as “exciting.” Although he admits to being “warned by some friends who disagree with some theological points of Bob Jones,” he states that “I sensed nothing wrong in my spirit. I was encouraged by attending.”
And, Charismania, you may want to duct-tape yourself to a chair before you read Steven Strang’s glowing comments on the “testimonies of healing and even stories about people being raised from the dead.”
Let me know before you read the articles…so I can hide in my fallout shelter until the shock wave passes over.
God bless,
Bud
Hi AnotherSceptic:
Excellent points.
No pun intended, but getting faith healers to back their claims with solid evidence is like finding a chicken with teeth. We are supposed to “trust” them, not ask questions and put their claims to the Biblical test.
If, however, we do request evidence and ask questions, then Katey-bar-the-door! We aren’t supposed to question faith healers or judge their “fruits” (Matthew chapter 7), but believe in them–even over what God clearly established in His word thousands of years ago.
As a suggestion to you and others who share your concerns, it does no harm to ask questions. Make phone calls, write e-mails, snail-mails, snd send FAXes. Ask for the evidence to back up their claims.
But be prepared to: be placed on hold; leave messages on voice-mail; receive bounced e-mails; listen to “He’s not available right now;” receive no reply.
Take note of it and document your efforts, because sometimes a broken promise or no reply is an answer in itself.
Christians are called to be faithful, not victorious. If we are faithful, God will bless our efforts and receive the victory and glory and praise.
God bless,
Bud
Bud,
Thanks so much for your comments. I agree wholeheartedly with you that Christians need to rise up and speak the truth (in love).
We spent quite a few years in the midst of a “Charismaniac” church, a place where there were always catchers and where the healing services always produced the same sorts of miracles (”I’ve been healed of back pain!” ) that we see in Todd’s meetings. Yet time after time, the sweet little girl in her wheelchair, and the blind man with the white cain, left the church in exactly the same condition they were in when they arrived.
But I would have defended the healing services, the catchers, the falling backward, all of it. I think the key to the “faith healers” (and all the other Charismaniac pastors who use the exact same techniques and mind games) is that they offer a certain kind of hope and tell people what they want to hear.
We were lured in by the “positive” message of our church. After a lifetime in “regular” Christianity, it was so wonderful to go to a place where we were constantly told that God wanted us to prosper financially…that God wanted us to be healthy and well…that we could work miracles and would soon be converting people left and right just by our presence in the room, and by the “anointing” that was on our lives…
I think we had a really bad case of “itching ears.” And we liked the way our pastor scratched that itch.
The people who still believe in the faith healers and their ilk are the folks who have not yet been disillusioned about the message of (false) hope that they preach. They just haven’t sat through enough miracle services to see how the biggest needs are never met. They haven’t been given enough false prophecies to hit the point where they realize that they’re false. They haven’t been looking for their “next big financial miracle” long enough to know that it’s never going to hit unless they cut back their spending and start putting some money in the bank.
Or…the people who still believe in these guys (and gals) are the very lucky minority who HAVE had seeming financial breakthroughs after giving a large offering they could not really afford. I mean, if you give a big offering and the very next day you get a promotion, you will always see a cause-and-effect relationship between those two things. Likewise if you’ve been “healed” of back pain through a healing service.
I suppose the best we can do is pray that the Lord opens their eyes sooner. Living in deception – being told what you want to hear, even though it does not line up with the real truths of God’s Word – is fun, for awhile. Until it’s obvious that it does not work.
But living in the hope of Christ is wonderful, even if it is sometimes difficult.
Post # 6… exactly, medical science is so far advanced that with all of the life support equipment available, 45 minutes is nothing…give me a dead body that has been wrapped for three days and beginning to smell and then the body is called forth by the Lord… that is raising the dead… or in a small village somewhere where no medical marvels are present and a dead body has been raised to validate who Jesus is, His ministry…that is raising the dead… and give ALL THE CREDIT AND GLORY to God and none to Todd Bentley!!!
Charismania:
Your honesty is refreshing. I praise the Lord that you and your family were spared.
Speaking of honesty, while I can’t speak for others within the apologetics/discernment/cult-evangelistic camps, one thing I have come to realize is that Christians aren’t immune from being deceived.
Those of us who have been called into the ministry have a tremendous responsibility to study, do our homework, reach out in love to the lost and deceived, and expose deception–to the best of our ability, as the Lord leads.
But at the same time, we should never forget that we are operating in the midst of demonic activity and, at times, ruthless people, whose agendas are to confuse, cause controversy, and tear our ministries apart.
And because pride gets in the way sometimes, it is important for us to remember the Apostle Paul’s words in 2 Corinthians 13:5:
“Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you–unless indeed you fail the test?”
Again, Christians aren’t immune to deception. Every moment that passes brings us closer to Jesus’ return. But until He comes for us, the level of deception will grow and increase.
In the meantime, be encouraged: “For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind” (2 Timothy 1:7).
Jesus is coming. We have His promise. And what a wonderful day that will be. Until then, let us remain strong in Him and His word–no matter what.
God bless,
Bud
Bud,
Did you see the video with the 11 year old boy with CP? That just breaks my heart. My good friend, Justin Peters has Cerebral Palsy, also and yet has a lot to say on this movement (http://justinpeters.org) See “demo.” He relies on God’s sufficient grace…
Thank you for your point about Jesus not using catchers… I was in a WoF church for over a decade… So, it breaks my heart… I went through so much… there is much to undo… I have seen so many hurt…
Thank you for your work. Its SO important. Its people like you contending for the faith that helped me…
God bless you!
I watched Todd ‘heal’ a young boy with Aspergers the other day, the boy stood there with his poor desperate mother.
Then he spoke to the boy and the boy responded. Now I am a practioner with Autism and Aspergers and that boy was NOT healed.
The monotone voice, the learned behaviour was still there, , it all came through as the boy was bammed on the head and pronounced healed!
counterfiet at its worst
Hi caron123:
If possible, please post a link to the video with the 11 year old boy with CP.
I know Justin Peters, and have been blessed by his ministry many times over. Please tell him “Bud said, Hi” the next time you talk to him.
I know many who have come out of the Word-Faith movement. They experienced the same–as if they had been a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon (loss of friends and family, etc.). They were confused and saddened by their experiences, but the Lord was there and He showered them with His love and grace.
God bless you, caron123. Be strong in Jesus…
Bud
Charismania,
Could you e-mail me?
devinbeliever@yahoo.com
my blog is called ‘the grey coats’ it’s on wordpress, and you can google us and find us that way too, but I have a feeling we will get along very well, I really like your content.
in Christ, our only hope,
Devin
Hi Pete:
Todd Bentley’s fake-healing on an adult is sad in and of itself. But when innocent children enter the picture, well…
Jesus said,
“Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matthew 18:4-5).
We need to pray for these adults and children who are in the midst of the faith healers.
God bless,
Bud
I hear ya Bud, I can’t stomach seeing the children being introduced to this.
Its also chilling when you hear the crowd roar with applause after they have been told that “an angel is going to visit the children.” shudder.
Btw, have been reading your posts with great interest. Keep them coming.
It is absolutely amazing how people can buy into this. I commented on a Pro-Bentley comment on another blog, and the response I got from this individual was very telling indeed. His response was laced with anger, which is not surprising considering the violence Mr. Bentley uses “ministering”. It seems that something is transferable, but it is definitely not the “anointing” that Bentey and others claim it is.
Michael,
To me, this Bentley thing is a big line in the sand, incredibly divisive. Those who think it is of God (at least, the ones that I have encountered) have ZERO tolerance for those of us who are hesitant and who think that Todd is not in agreement with Scripture.
On the other hand, I’ve encountered several of us “con” (for lack of a better term!) folks who are filled with compassion for the people making the journey to Lakeland.
My heart is actually overwhelmed with sadness for them. I do understand what it is like to be willfully deceived. It’s a tough place to be. It’s no fun to suspect in your heart of hearts that you may be allowing yourself to be swayed or fooled by masquerading spirits. Or that your own level of discernment is not what it should be.
I’ve just decided that there’s nothing we can cling to apart from the Word of God. God gave us the Bible, and if we are going off seeking additional revelation that is in conflict with the Bible, then eventually He will give us over to that deception.
But it’s sad.
I just watched Todd’s interview with Geraldo. I’m dumbfounded. This supposed revival has been going on for more than two months, they’ve been begging for the press to show up….Geraldo finally does and the best healing story that they have documentation ready for is that healed elbow? (which is iffy anyway seeing that a lot of healing could have taken place naturally in the two weeks between the first and second x-rays)
Seems to me that if you’ve truly had 22 people wake from the dead, you might just have some proof when the press finally comes knocking at your door. Todd said they had pages of documented healings. Then why is the elbow the best he could produce?
And yet they keep flocking down there.
Hello Everyone:
Good points.
Have you seen the “YouTube” video of the man man who walked onto Todd Bentley’s stage wearing two prosthetic legs and a glass eye? He claimed one of his legs had grown an “inch” and that he could see light through the glass eye.
Check it out at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDV0mK1DAD4
Bentley milked it for all it was worth. And Bentley’s followers bought it.
Todd Bentley does not have the Biblical gift of healing. Bentley’s “God” does not have the authority or power to heal.
This is in-you-face deception at its worst, and we need to pray for those being deceived by the wolves in sheep’s clothing.
God bless you. Stand strong for Jesus Christ, and continue in your good fight for the faith.
Bud
Bud I watched it live on oddtv, Toddy says this a greater miracle than having his eye replaced by a real eye. What a load of nonesense, it is NOT a greater miracle than flesh growing back into an eyeball.
Plus, this man could not see through this glass eye. He even added a disclaimer incase he was asked to see anything else through it while his good eye was covered. “Its not all clear yet” he says, lets hope Geraldo turns to men like him for support of the healings.
Wouldn’t it have made sense, if this was an actual miracle, for God to go all the way? I mean the guy has 2 prosthetic legs, and claims they grew an inch! I dunno, seems to me that God would give him 2 fully restored limbs. Same with the eye. The problem is, these “miracles” cannot be proven. You cannot prove the guy is seeing light, or that his legs grew. As with most of these miracles, they are totally unverifiable.
Amen Michael, that man walked off the platform exactly as he had walked on. As someone once said in regards to the counterfeit revivalists:
“they can give the illusion of stretchig a leg but they cant creat new limbs, they can give the illusion of slaying in the spirit but they cant resurrect the slain”.
Pete and Michael:
“oddtv” is right. The programming is inundated with heretics and false prophets and false healers.
The God of the Bible could easily heal the man’s eyesight and legs, but His not doing so clearly demonstrates that Todd Bentley hasn’t the gift of healing.
Unless the optic nerve has been damaged or destroyed, it is possible for the man to barely see light or flashes of light, but nothing else.
I am so thankful we have the evidence of true healings in the Bible, which are totally different to the “healings” produced by the false teachers of today.
God bless,
Bud
Bud,
Thanks for your kind reply, and I’m sorry for the slight delay in responding.
I’m afraid I have neither the time nor the calling to be a professional heresy hunter.
But I am grateful to everyone who publicises the lies spouted by these false teachers and holds them to account for their exaggerated claims.
I’m very sad that I have to use the word “sceptic” in my screen name – my experience over 20 years has been that the vast majority of “miracles” have not happened. I believe that the higher the profile of the minister, the more likely it is that they are a fraud.
But spare a thought and a prayer for the thousands of sincere/devout/mature christians (including several friends of mine) who have been taken in by the deception. This is the real tragedy.
Skeptic, I agree with your posts. These individuals are selling snake oil, for the most part.
The one organization that does hunt these guys down is Dallas based Trinity Foundation. They have a satirical Christian on line magazine called the Wittenburg Door.
Michael,
Random aside – I just found out recently that the Trinity Foundation (headed by Ole Anthony) has its own issues with cultlike characteristics! It seems amazing, but the very folks doing the heresy hunting are themselves part of an abusive ministry.
You can read more here: http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2007/10/22/ole-anthony-and-the-trinity-foundation/
hi
i have been watching Tood Bentlys Florida Outpouring for a couple of weeks, and i have been slightly sceptical but i dont know if you have watched the programme when a lady who looked as if she was pregnant(i think it was cystic FYBROSIS) was healed so whats happening are some being healed ad others not?
the deathsand resurections have been quite suspicious as there are no pictures or no relatives that have attended the meeting even if ir is one relative.
If people are worshiping Todd Bentley then they are wrong yes in some ways Todd is partially wrong for not responding to this outcries if he knows about them. however people are responsible too for being ignorant, in the last days the heart of man will beome desperately wicked their mind and hearts will be seared with a hot iron.
didi it ever occur too you that even though todd may be in the wrong , people are to blame as well. yes if Todd is in the wrong his punishment will be great for Jesus said that it is better for man to be thrown into the sea with a millstone about his neck than too lead his people away. However if people read the word of God they would not be lead so easily astray yes some are desperate but people need to seek Gods Guidance and his will.
im 13 and i totally understand if you didnt understand but i felt i should put my view across
Liz
Here is a comment that I made on a different post. I think it fits even better here. Readers please keep in mind that no one is trying to throw out the baby with the bath water here. Scripture is clear that certain “things” WILL follow those that believe. But as scripture also commands, we are to test all things and only hold on to that which is good. Blogs like these are calls for the church to start spiritually discerning what is going on around them and for them to remind each other about the warnings of scripture of how no to fall into spiritual deception when the supernatural is occurring in our midst. These are the guidelines and the RESPONSIBILITY Jesus Himself gave us to be good stewards of the supernatural. And unfortunately, none us this is being done or taught in Lakeland. And so those of us who are trying to discern are being labeled as heresy hunters, but in reality our discernment is showing us very clearly that the enemy is at work right there in the midst of what God may or may not legitimately being there in Florida.
To lean towards the skeptical side, a few medically documented miracles don’t validate the hundreds upon hundreds of miracles that have been claimed from the pulpit. Nor does a few documented miracles validate all of what is ocurring and being taught in Lakeland as a move of God. Jesus made it very clear that in the end times that false Christs and prophets would move in great signs and wonders as well!
Matthew 24:24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and flase prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Keep in mind that a legitimate medically verifiable miracle MUST contain at least two important pieces of evidence to be confirmed.
1. Medical documentation that the illness/ ailment/ etc. was there in the first place.
2. Medical documentation that the illness/ ailment/ etc. is no longer present in the patient.
And these two pieces of proof should follow some guidlines as well.
For example:
CLAIM: Someone healed miraculously of a broken arm.
PROOF: (1) Dated xray showing actual break with signed report from radiologist. (2) Dated xray showing no break with signed report from same radiologist (or same radiology dept.) that confirms that natural healing could not have taken place in time frame between initial and current xray.
POSSIBLY FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) Xray of healed break only. (3) Undated xrays. (4) Before and after xrays dated too far apart. (5) Missing of one or both signed radiology reports.
CLAIM: Someone has been healed of brain tumor.
PROOF: (1) Dated printout of MRI CAT scan showing tumor with signed report from radiologist verifying existence of tumor. (2) Dated printout of MRI CAT scan showing absence of previously found tumor with a signed report from same radiologist (or same radiology dept.) that confirms that the tumor no longer exists in same patient and has not been removed by any medical/ surgical/ treatment and/ or through medicine.
POSSIBLY FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) MRI CAT scan of only a brain with no tumor. (3) Undated MRI CAT scans. (4) Missing of one or both signed radiology reports.
CLAIM: Someone has been raised from the dead.
PROOF: (1) Signed Coroner’s report and/or signed autopsy report. (2) Death Certificate (must be signed by coroner). (3) Obituary copy, ONLY with the addition of signed Death Certificate.
ADDITIONAL PROOF (once cadaver’s custody has been transferred from Coroner/Hospital)
(1) Signed Funeral Home Director’s report; which should contain time stamp of custody transfer, embalming time stamp(s), cosmetic time stamp(s), presentation time stamp(s). (2) Copy of funeral program, and/or wake visitation program ONLY in addition to signed Funeral Home Director’s report.
POSSIBLE FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) Missing of signed Coroner’s report. (3) Missing of signed Death Certificate. (4) Unsigned Death Certificate. (5) Obituary without signed Death Certificate.
Anything short of these qualifications should NOT be claimed as a medically documented miracle, because they simply are not. And to do so, is to be a poor steward of God’s miraculous power in our midst. And it is extreme irresponsibility towards the giftings and callings which Christ needed to die for and be raised from the dead to give to the church for the equipping of the saints to fulfill the Great Commission in the earth.
Jesus went through so much to bring the miraculous into the life of the believer, the least we can do is to be responsible stewards and document it in an unchallengeable way so that He can receive the glory He deserves for it. When we fail to do so, we discredit Him amongst the lost rather than reveal Him to the lost. And often the glory He deserves ends up going to individuals because only believers end up believing.
Danyael
I’d certaily throw out the baby with the bath water if it was Rosemarys baby.
Lizza, you’re 13? Full of wisdom! Thank God for young folk like you.
You said:
“…the deathsand resurections have been quite suspicious as there are no pictures or no relatives that have attended the meeting even if ir is one relative..”
Strange isnt it? No names, no pictures, no testimonies from poeple who have been resurrected! How unlike Jesus ministry when people were identified by name (Lazarus) and eye witnesses heard the dead speak (John 11).
Hi Charismania, yes I am aware of some of those issues with the Trinity Foundation. I’ve read both sides of the issue, and I know some of the attacks were from the organizations they are exposing. I certainly do not approve of any abusive tactics, and if they are indeed involved in those practices, then they too need to be exposed. The only reason I mentioned them is because they were to only ones I knew of exposing these heretics.
Lizza, excellent comments. Yes, I fully agree, it is not only Todd Bentley that is too blame, the throngs of people flocking to his meetings bear some of the blame as well. Individuals like Bentley and other would not receive the attention they do, if people refused to put them on a pedestal. Being 13, you were not born when scandals involving famous Christian leaders in the 1980’s took place, for this very reason. They were placed so high up, that they believed they were untouchable.
If anyone know of the clip Lizza is referring to, concerning the woman healed of CF, I would like to see it. Strangely enough, people behaving and walking as if they are in the process of “birthing” has been one of the marks of this movement since the Toronto Blessing hit in 1994. It is supposed to be a prophetic sign of God birthing something new.
As a charismatic in the biblical meaning of it I share many of the concerns over this “work”.
Bibilical accounts of “resurrections” wrought through human agencies are RARE. In the OT apart from Elijah and Elisha ( not forgetting the guy who was raised from touching Elisha’s bones ) I cant think of any more. In NT there was Peter (Dorcas) and Paul ( Eutychus ). To my knowledge which is agreeably limited I cant think of any more.
The teaching and expectation that ordinary believers are now being restored to supernatural phenomena as in the Apostolic age are in all honesty avoiding the blatant reality that NT Christians were used more in their witness than the miraculous. Raising the dead wasn’t even wide spread amongst the chief Apostles let alone the others.
Dont get me wrong I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and He is able to raise whomever,whenever etc. I take issue with the teaching that is placed on believers to expect such fetes.
Subsequent CHurch history surely validates what I’m striving to say. Scripture and history validate the reality that in the realm of the miraculous it is mainly the exception rather than the norm. I am saddened by the TB events as well as those who in opposing tend to throw the baby out with the bath water. A temperate , balanced and humble approach is required if we are to help our dear “brethren” who at this time are misguided etc. I am challenged by TB’s passion which I see so lacking not only in my own heart but also of so many Christians I know and love. Where is our passion ?
Hi AnotherSceptic:
You’re welcome. No need to apologize for the delay in responding.
I’m not sure where the term “heresy hunter” originated, but my first introduction to it came from the lips of Paul Crouch, founder of TBN, many years ago.
Crouch milked the term for all it was worth, and received a lot of laughs and tee-he-hee’s from his dedicated followers back then. Eventually, “heresy hunter” spread like wildfire throughout the Word-Faith movement and became a catch-word with the likes of Benny Hinn and his dedicated followers.
Those of us who were branded “heresy hunters” became enemies of TBN and the Word-Faith wigglers TBN endorsed and promoted. But it was their choice, not ours. We loved them despite the name-calling, twisting of God’s word, refusal to repent, and refusal to be accountable–first to God then the body of Christ.
Later, the term “heresy hunter” filtered down to the cults. After being called a “heresy hunter” by Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses on more than one occasion, I became curious and asked where they got the term. They replied, “From your own Christian TV.”
They laughed and tee-he-hee’d too, until I explained that TBN was so heretical that one couldn’t get a Christian radar fix on them.
Mormons, in particular, believe they can become a “god” and inhabit their own planet (among other cultic nonsense). So, when the term “heresy hunter” entered the conversation, I simply reminded them that Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and Paul Crouch believe they ARE “gods,” and that two wrongs don’t make a right.
Needless to say, the laughs and tee-he-hee’s dwindled into a head-scratching session for the Mormons.
Anyway, I concluded that much of what was on TBN at the time was not Christian. But all was not lost. The term “heresy hunter”–whether coined from the TBN-ers or the cults–opened the door to share what the Bible teaches about false prophets, savage wolves in sheep’s clothing, and defending the faith (Matthew chapter 7; Acts 20:27-31; Jude 3).
So, while being termed a “heresy hunter” opened many doors to share the gospel, defend the faith, and explain what God expects from His Christian sons and daughters, I admit that being called a “heresy hunter” bugged me for awhile, because I knew that I was not willfully hunting heresy; it seemed to be hunting me and daring me to do something about it.
Well, the answer finally dawned on me one day while talking to a friend, who happened to be a police officer at the time. I grinned and asked if he was staying busy, and he responded with something like, “Bud, all we have to do is stay alert. We don’t have to look for crime, it finds us.”
Bingo! That was a goody! As Christians, if we study God’s word faithfully and prayerfully on a daily basis, the Holy Spirit will bless us with the ability to discern truth from error and good from evil.
Heresy is a crime against God and His word. But if we have God’s word written deep within our hearts and minds, we will be alert when heresy rears its ugly head. And I believe God places us in the midst of those being deceived by false prophets and false teachers.
And, somewhere along the line, every Christian has been or will be faced with his or her day of reckoning–when they are faced with sharing the gospel and defending the faith. At that moment we have a choice: tell the truth in love or cower down and run for cover.
What Jesus did for me on the cross is what I think about everyday. Everytime I reach out to the lost, including those under the intimidating thumbs of the heretics, I think about the pain, suffering, and humiliation my Savior endured for me. Jesus shed His precious blood on the cross for me, so that I could have eternal life with and live with Him forever.
“Heresy hunter”? No, not me. There is no need to hunt heresy. Heresy, like crime, is upfront, in the open, and in our faces.
And since actions speak louder than words, the question we must ask ourselves is, “What are we going to do about it?”
God bless,
Bud
Great post Bud.
The term ‘heresy hunter’ and ‘touch not the lords anointed’ used to drive me insane back in the mid 90s everytime I wanted to discuss an issue in the church. Then I realised it was much easier for them to say either one of those than to actually look at the point and explore the evidence being presented.
Just like any cult they have their own jargon, those words you mentioned are top of their list.
Charismania:
Please contact me at my e-mail address. If you prefer not to I will understand.
Thanks, and God bless,
Bud
Thanks, Pete.
Good points.
Indeed, if there were no “hawkers of heresy” the term “heresy hunter” would be null and void.
“Heresy hawkers” go to great lengths to twist Scripture and avoid the truth of the issues, choosing instead to play damage-control and develop their on heresy hawker-eze.
Personally, I hate the word “attack” (which is heresy hawker-eze for “We got caught teaching heresy, so let’s see how we can wiggle our way out of it”).
God bless,
Bud
New article online at Christian Research Service:
Todd Bentley: Miraculous Healings?
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentley3.htm
Thanks, Charismania, and God bless,
Bud
Well, how do you explain the woman getting up out of her wheelchair and walking around the room by herself? (unless she could already walk. Her legs looked strong and healthy to me.) The man with the glass eye is seeing light? Maybe someone could shed some “light” on that one. I can’t see how anyone can see out of a fake eyeball.
The pastor of the church I was going to is so convinced that this is the endtime revival, she has the congregation watching the revival on TV at the church in the evenings. My friend just called me and told me she went last night and felt the anointing coming from the TV. I told her I have watched it on the internet and don’t feel any anointing at all.
Jan,
Just to answer your question, I don’t know what the condition of the lady in the wheelchair was/is. It is possible that she could walk already, but needed the wheelchair because of a condition that makes it difficult to walk any distance. I myself have a spinal cord condition that causes me to need my wheelchair periodically. It is possible that she was healed. But, the majority of people, if not all, report no changes over the long term. The emotion of the moment can do some incredible things, especially when adrenaline takes charge.
Secondly, the man with the glass eye. How does on verify that? We have to take his word. I stated before, wouldn’t it have been more glorifying to God to see that glass eye pop out, and be replaced by a newly created eye?
Also, just because the pastor believes it is an end time revival, does not mean it is. Pastors can be wrong. Check what you see happening, what is being preached against what you read in your Bible. If the preacher is exalting himself and his experiences over scripture, that is a clear sign that something is not right.
Jan,
According to scripture, there will no endtime revival, but rather an endtimes apostasy. Most adherents of an endtimes revival base it on a false interpretation of Acts 2 at Pentecost and a few verses in Joel. Here’s correct interpretation starting with Acts 2:15:
15These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17″ ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy. [Acts 2:15-18 NIV]
The Joel passage is here:
28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days. [Joel 2:28-29 NIV]
In the Acts passage, Peter is telling the crowd that the events that had just occurred at Pentecost were prophesied in Joel 2:28-29. What happened? The Holy Spirit indwelled the individuals – the first time in history, the HS actually came to permanently indwell Christians. Subsequently, all true Christians have been and will continue to be indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit… Since the Spirit was being poured out right then and there at Pentecost, Peter was telling the crowd that that time right then and there is the last days. The last days began at Pentecost (or perhaps with Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection) and will continue on until Jesus’ 2nd coming. We are now in the last of the last days.
…on all people All people instead of a select few as in the OT in which the Holy Spirit came upon certain individuals at certain times for God’s purposes. Now, in the NT era all people, that is all different types of people regardless of age, gender, race, socio-economic background, etc. will have access to this wonderful gift of the Holy Spirit by accepting Jesus Christ as LORD and savior.
Hence, this passage DOES NOT refer to some end times Holy Spirit outpouring (especially the mockery in Lakeland with Bentley) on all people as some believe in the false prophesy of a “billion souls saved” at the end. Jesus made it quite clear:
13″Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. [Matthew 7:13-14 NIV]
Matthew chapter 24 speaks of the falling away:
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold…” [Matthew 24:9-12 NIV]
Lee, Is Matt 24 the only scripture you are aware of that speaks of a great falling away? Also it says “many” people will be deceived by the false prophets. Its kind of scary that so many people I know personally, and I’m sure you do too, are totally convinced that this revival is genuine and they are totally sold out to it. I guess that’s why I keep questioning myself and watching it for signs that what is preached is in error. Last night Heather Clark was leading worship and I love her worship style. She seems very genuine, pure and flowing in the Holy Spirit. I guess there are going to be both deceivers and the deceived participating together in this revival. I keep wondering if the people behind this thing have a big agenda they are executing and already have it all planned out.
Jan,
I keep wondering if the people behind this thing have a big agenda they are executing and already have it all planned out.
I do believe this is the case. The modern prophetic which includes IHOP(s) and Elijah List are associated with Toronto/Brownsville/Lakeland as well as the New Apostolic Reformation (Chuck Pierce is 2nd in charge):
http://www.apostlesnet.net/
It’s hard to pin ‘em all down; but, there seem to be ties to Rick Warren’s ecumenism (drive for religious plurality/unity/synchretism) as well. I see all this stuff essentially as the New Age movement within the church using Christain lingo. And, like the New Age movement each part seems to be disconnected from each other yet in reality they are.
I recently saw a chart which had most all these sub-movements together like some really wacky flow chart. As I recall (I’ll have to dig it up when I have time) it included the Roman Catholic Church; however, I KNOW it included the Alpha Course which had its germination at Holy Trinity Brompton (UK) which itself was tied to the Toronto “Blessing.” Perhaps I’ll post a more cohesive comment showing how all these various submovements are intertwined if I can.
Is Matt 24 the only scripture you are aware of that speaks of a great falling away?
No, but it was the first I could think of at the time; and, since it was Jesus’ own words I figured it would carry more weight than Paul’s, Peter’s or John’s words. Here are more:
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. [2 Thess 2:9-12 NIV]
1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. [1 Timothy 4:1-2 NIV]
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. [2 Peter 2:1-3 NIV]
Warning Against Antichrists
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[a] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. [1 John 2:18-27 NIV]
There are more warnings of false teachers; but, these are the ones that speak more specifically of last days. The passage from Peter, though it doesn’t specify ‘last of the last days’ it does say ‘many’ which seems to be increasing by the year recently. 1 John passage speaks of our ‘anointing’ by the Holy Spirit’s indwelling contrary to a ‘counterfeit’ one [can anyone say 'Bentley?']
I guess there are going to be both deceivers and the deceived participating together in this revival.
Hi Jan,
The danger is, the deceivers don’t believe they are deceived. They’ve bought into it. I was part of the Vineyard (I’m not going anywhere right now), and I know that when The Toronto Blessing came, they were part of that whole thing. One thing I heard John Wimber say before he died, was that he was wrong to lead the Vineyard into that, and also the Kansas City Prophets. Unfortunately, once the Genie was let out of the bottle, it ram rampant. I’ve used Alpha, and I don’t have a problem with it. However, I’m probably more liberal than some others too when it comes to stuff like that.
If you are watching for signs that this is God, be careful, because you may see signs that do appear right. However, the ultimate judge is scripture. I posted on my blog an article about Todd and his angel. Click my name to read it and see the video.
Michael,
Regarding the Alpha Course:
While there are a few other concerns I have with the course (most are minor), the primary one is the overemphasis on the Holy Spirit weekend and especially tongues speaking. Before anyone jumps in here, I’m not a cessationist. However, Gumbel goes so far as devote nearly a whole chapter (session 10) to tongues to the point of quoting scripture out of context.
Under section III, number 4, three verses from 1 Corinthians 14 are listing in the booklet (5, 18, 39), however only 18 is actually quoted:
18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
However, Gumbel, by pulling this verse out of context misses the larger point of Paul’s words. Adding verse 19:
19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
All throughout 1 Corinthians 14 Paul is stressing prophesy over tongues. Here’s verse 5:
5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
And, here’s verse 39:
39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
I firmly believe that tongues are a gateway for Satan to enter the church. That is NOT to say that all tongues-speakers are of Satan. However, if one does not know what one is speaking and there is no interpreter, how does one know what s/he is saying?
If this course is an evangelical/witnessing tool, then there’s a likelihood that some who reach session 10 are not yet Christians. Yet, if the Alpha Course leaders stick to the text (as they are specifically told to) then they will stress tongues speaking. I’ve heard of some churches really STRESSING tongues.
part 5 How do we receive this gift?
– “Eagerly desire” (1 Corinthians 14:1) [note: again taken out of context for this stresses to 'eagerly desire...especially the gift of prophecy']
- Ask God
- Co-operate with the Spirit
- Believe
- Persevere
So, the problem is if someone is not yet a Holy Spirit indwelled believer then just what ’spirit’ will they be cooperating with?
Hi Lee,
Those are some valid concerns. I’ve led 7 Alpha courses, and I know that the HS weekend can be controversial.
The way I did it was to show the video, and then talk through some of those very issues you raised, namely NOT over-emphasizing this one particular gift. I think alot depends upon the individuals running the course. When I trained my leaders, we discussed the Holy Spirit weekend in depth. However, I never had any non Christians at those weekends, that I can remember. When I did it with 2 churches working together, we actually presented it as two or three weekly sessions, and there we had non Christians, but I was so involved in facilitating everything I never lead a group at that one.
Michael,
Thanks for this discussion. I’ve only sat through the course once; and, it was last year. I did this with the specific intention of critiquing it; but, it has been awhile now. However, one other thing that I recall is that in Session 2 “Who is Jesus?” Gumbel leaves out the virgin birth — that is, unless I missed it.
There’s also terminology that sound like Latter Rain. Also, some of the manifestations Gumbel mentions are reminiscent of Toronto/Brownsville including an 8 year old boy who was ‘laughing under the Spirit.’ Sorry, I’ll never buy laughing uncontrollably as being of/from God.
Hi Lee,
I’m pretty sure he does discuss the Virgin Birth. I’ll have to look it up. It might be later in the course. I haven’t done it for about 5 years now, so my memory is not what it used to be LOL. I don’t recall the testimony of the 8 year old boy, but the videos have been re-done. I used the first set that Alpha put out, and I think they re made them a few years ago.
Michael,
I can’t believe how you and others twist things around that are not true. This in itself causes people to believe false things and get confused.
My husband and I were in the leadership of the Vineyard in the 90s for about 9 years. John Wimber did not lead anyone into the Toronto Blessing…he wasn’t even there when it happened. When it first happened he didn’t oppose it as he believed it was God, but as he looked into it further, and has the weirdness progressed, he saw things that did not go along with the Vineyard’s core values and beliefs, and he and the Vineyard leadership did NOT approve what was going on. John Arnott refused to listen to the leadership in the Vineyard which caused them to leave the Vineyard and become TACF – Airport Christian Fellowship.
Those were John’s own words atthe national leade3rship conference in Kelowna in ‘97, which I attended. He stated, “I led the Vineyard into the Toronto Blessing, and out of it…” I think you mis understood my comment. I have the utmost respect for Wimber. I became involved with the Vineyard at the time of the TB. I believed at the time it was of God, and I still believe it started out that way. Unfortunately, it degenerated into something that became plain weird.
While you are correct, Wimber did not “lead” the Vineyard into it, in the sense that he did not initiate it, he did allow it and approve of it for a time, which, again, I believe was the correct thing to do. I am correct in stating that he did apologize at that conference using those words. Sorry if I did not make that clear. Also, I would have no qualms about going back to the Vineyard, if I decided to go back to church. It was probably the best church experience I had for over 12 years.
One other thing I should mention as well, is that Wimber also referred to the Kansas City Prophets at that same conference in “97, and used the same words, “I led the Vineyard into the prophetic movement, and I led them out of it.” Now, I do not believe he was saying that he no longer agreed with the prophetic, but it was a reference to the whole Kansas City/Metro Vineyard affair. This was in the context of a message he gave concerning the direction of the Vineyard Movement, and how certain things that had occured a few years before did not fit the Vineyard core beliefs and model.
While Wimber certainly had his critics, he did recognize that he could be wrong at times, and, from what I saw and experienced of him, tried to live and walk in humility, repenting and changing when he was wrong.
Someone stated that he also distanced himself from Peter Wagner’s teachings before he died, warning the Vineyard not to fall into the erroneous teachings. I have Bill Jackson’s book, Quest For The Radical Middle, which gives an excellent history lesson of the Vineyard, up through the Toronto Blessing years. I had several email exchanges with Jackson to clear up some questions raised in the book.
I think the fact that John Arnott and the leadership of the Toronto church did not listen to the correction being given was more telling than anything in this. I know it caused a massive rift within the movement, and I think in some ways, the Vineyard did not recover fully from that. However, I also believe that it moved the Vineyard closer to the Evangelical mainstream. (Whether that is a good thing or not, is up to the individual.)
Also my pastor at the time was on the team that went to Toronto to inform the Church of the decision to release them from the Vineyard. Again, let me make it clear, I have nothing but the highest respect for John Wimber and the Vineyard leadership here in Canada. I can’t say much about the states, as I understand that the churches there are quite different than those here.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
Jan,
One of the things that irks me is doing a search of Toronto Blessing, all of the sites opposing it link Wimber as the source of it, and the “leader” of the whole thing. Very few of them make mention of the fact that Wimber called the excesses into question, or that he, along with the leadership team of the Vineyard dis-associated with Toronto. I think ultimately, Wimber and the Vineyard will be best remembered for the impact they have had on intimate personal worship. There isn’t a church that I can think of that does not incorporate Vineyard Music in it’s worship.
I not sure how this is going to sound to many of you, but, I have been researching Todd Bently for a couple of days and honestly, I get the weirdest feeling when I hear him speaking about the “angel emma” and all this other stuff that he talks about. I have an account at God tv and I went there to listen to his sermon, but, this feeling (God maybe, my conscious, who knows?) kept nagging at me not to watch or listen to this, well naturally I obeyed and left the site. Certainly I have no intentions of returning there any more, God willing. I honestly believe that people are being led astray by this outpouring, and that frightens me. We were warned by Jesus that this would happen. I believe that this may be the falling away that was spoken of in the Bible. I guess the reason that I wrote to you about this will stay unknown to me, but I just had an urge to write it. Thank you and God bless.. DOKJ
Michael,
Thanks for clearing things up regarding Wimber and his involvement with the Toronto Blessing. I agree that it started off on the right track as a revival, but man made it into something weird. I went to Toronto for a few days and saw a woman on stage who was trying to give a testimony but she kept clucking and making physical movements like a chicken. Then there was a man on all fours crawling around the room barking like a dog. When I asked about this strange stuff going on, I was told that the devil always tries to bring in a distraction. My real question was….why didn’t anyone stop this weird phenomina? Why didn’t the leadership ask the people to leave or at least stop?
I agree with you about the worship music. I was a worship leader at the Vineyard and I still love playing and singing those intimate worship songs. When I first started attending the Vineyard, the worship would make me cry every Sunday. I couldn’t even talk to people after the service because I felt so touched by the Lord by the worship. I miss the prayer at the end of the service. The church I attend now does not have a prayer team come up at the end of the service. I was also very involved in the kinship groups and led the small group worship. You can’t bring back those days but they were precious and I’ll never forget them.
Vairy,
If you do a search about the angel Emma and Todd Bentley together, you will see where Emma originated and other things he has said about his angel encounters. There is You Tube video out there where Todd Bentley describes being abducted by angels and put on a table being operated on. He was screaming and frightened. It sounds more like an alien abduction then an encounter with a loving God… There is also another video on You Tube where he talks about a tunnel of white light coming on the stage that he walks into. He has also said he’s been physically transported to Australia through a vision. This has led us to believe that Todd Bentley thinks every supernatural experience is from God and he doesn’t test the spirits like the Word warns us to.
If you read through the other posts on this blog you will see how many of us have come to the same conclusions as you did.
God Bless,
Jan
the point of belief is FAITH.. in which i see none on here, only skeptics….besides the fact as a revivalist myself delivered from meth and pcp straight out the padded room by the power of JESUS …..i would only even begin to consider ya’lls arguments if u were backed by the word of God……i scanned over all this and it was not edifying to the Church at all and there was little to no scripture which is the bread of life…….if u dont believe in what God is doing in the body of Christ, then God hides his truths from u making them appear weak, gay and false…….but if u were to be inspired instead then maybe u could start something greater than Todd and appeal to the unity of this country and just polish off his rough edges cuz yes we all fall short….GO WIN THE LOST, DISCIPLING, BAPTIZING, WASHING EACH OTHER’S FEET…….LOVING PEOPLE……WE SHALL BE KNOWN BY OUR FRUIT……….THAT’S THE WORD. peace and blessings hallelujah
Hi Jan,
Glad I was able to clear up the misunderstanding. Currently I’m not attending anywhere, but that has nothing to do with thw “revival” stuff, more some other personal things.
Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem going back to the Vineyard, at least near where I live, as the church is pastored by both of my former pastors from Edmonton. When the TB hit, I know that a wave of manifestations came with it to our church, but nothing to the extreme of what was happening in Toronto. When Toronto was asked/told to leave, the manifestations pretty well petered out. Two years ago, when I last attended, they were pretty well non existent.
Back in 94, a guy in Edmonton had gotten hold of a series of videos from Toronto, before the truly weird stuff started, and I remember on speaker (sorry, I can’t remember his name), said that what was happening was God, but wasn’t necessarily revival – yet. It would only become revival when people were getting saved, people were repenting, people were transformed, and the city was changed. He went on to say that all these manifestations were fine, BUT, if you’re still roaring and flapping your arms in 2 years, you’ve got a problem. Well, it’s 14 years later, and I’m not sure what’s happening in Toronto, but here we are again.
There was absolutely no justification for people going on all fours, and clucking and barking. Honestly, from some of the things I saw, you would think you were at a drug party.
What is truly sad, is the lives and churches this is destroying. If you question it, you are considered an enemy of revival.
As far as Emma goes, Bentley clearly links her as the angel that appeared to William Branham in 1948. Branham was a mystic and spiritualist that operated under the guise of Christianity. He was the one that propagated the Latter Rain heresy, and he is considered the father of the Word Faith movement. Benny Hinn, Bob Jones, Paul Cain all attribute him as the inspiration for their “ministries”, as does Hagin and Copeland. Why can’t people just learn to discern?
Babymoses, the Bible s very clear that false prophets will arise in the last days.
Matt. 24:24
Concerning mystical teachings – angelic messages and the like:
Col. 2:18-19
Concerning false doctrine:
1 Tim. 1:3-11
1 Tim. 4:1-5
False Teachers:
1 Tim. 6:3-5
Apostasy:
2 Tim. 3
2 Peter 4
I could go on and on.
Babymoses, most of us posting here have been involved with this type of thing over the years, and have seen the fruit that it has borne. People’s faith wrecked, churches torn apart, ministers ruined, and friendships torn apart. Is this the fruit of revival?
Babymoses,
You posted: “the point of belief is FAITH.. in which i see none on here, only skeptics”
Please view the video attached on this link and tell me if you are convinced this the “faith” that is taught in the Bible.
http://godandculture.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/the-lakeland-revival-and-violent-healing/
All I can say is if anyone ever came running at me down the aisle of a church to “BAM” me for Jesus, my cowboy booted foot would be raised and knee locked at a very uncomfortable level for the “BAMMER”.
I have never heard of such stupidity in my life. Can someone say, “Lawsuit?”
I was just watching another video where Todd Bentley was laying hands on and praying over everyone who was visiting from Wales. His prayer language was:
Sheek-a-boom-ba…………BAM!
LOL I guess that must be a new tongue.
Jan,
That made me LOL.
Actually I posted a comment on another blog, and one of his supporters BAMMED me! He ended his comment by saying, “Wow, and BAM you.” I thought Emeril, that chef, had a copyright on that BAM thing. ROFL
Reminds me of the time when a girl I worked with back in the ’80’s tried to get me speaking in tongues by saying “Yabba Dabba Doo” over and over again. For the record, I did not. She said that’s how she got it.
baby moses, 1st, great to hear that you have been delivered from meths etc I now pray that you will be delivered from error.
Good to meet you, I guess all of us here can rejoice in your testimony and relate to you in the saving Grace of our Lord
Yes it is about Faith, but it doesnt stop there does it? The true apostles asked us to to protect the ‘Faith’ that was once handed down. To watch our “life and doctrine” closely and to make sure of all this and hold fast that which is good (1 Thess 5:21).
All of us have faith, but not in men and certainly not in the imaginations of Todd Bentley.
You may be pleased to hear Todd has been delivered from many demons. While being demon possessed he passed on his ‘anointing’ on to many. He was delivered afterwards. I hope you will agree that he was passing on something demonic while he was possessed? Even though he spoke in the ‘name of the lord’
What makes you think he is not passing the same on now? None of his visions have changed, they all still pass on extra biblical revelations. His life hasnt changed much, he still has the need to fill his body with tattoos. He still feels the need to run and kick people under his anointing. There are very few changes in his ministry but by his own admission, he, as a born again Christian, was delivered from up to 20 demons. You may feel comfortable letting his pass his anointing on to you, but I certainly wouldnt.
I dont think its being unfair to ‘test’ the spirits.
I have noticed that the main difference between the “bammed and the unbammed” is the unbammed have a striking interest in obeying the word of God, the bammed have a striking interest in the boom a bang boom pow pow pow, glug glug boom boom…bang.
Its a toughie, which side to take? tough question huh.
More ’sheeka boomba’ here just after 1:35:00. Also, note how his voice changes as he ‘releases’ the fire to the Germans. Then, when he calls out for those from Ireland, he approximates an Irish accent. Quite the chameleon.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/395328
Hi Lee,
Thousands flocking with itching ears….
Yeah I listened to that, and really couldn’t hear it. To be honest, I think the concerns are deeper than faking an Irish accent.
Michael,
The really weird part is where he changes his voice to where it sounds demonic as he says “release…” He does this in many of the videos I’ve seen/heard. He also lengthens his ’s’ to ssssssssssss as when he is getting ready to transfer his ‘anointing’ — even when he says ‘Jesusssssss.’ Creepy.
I couldn’t hear it with the germans but the irish was pretty obvious. He slips from the canadian accent into the southern all the time, too Not a big deal, just further indication to me that he’s just an actor of sorts. He’s learned the lingo, the phrases. Sometimes I get creeped out when him and some of his assistants get overcome with laughter…I just get a picture of them sitting in a back room somewhere laughing just like that…not in the spirit, but laughing at just what kind of ridiculous nonsense the sheeple are going to buy into next, and just how many bizarre stories they can pass off as truth to a crowd that’s either desperate for real healing or demanding a sign.
I laugh at some of the funnier comments here and its refreshing, the ‘bam’ ‘pows’ are more similar to batman than Bible. But then I see him releasing ‘it’ to the Germans and Irish and then my gut turns with sadness. Sometimes you dont know whether to laugh or cry.
Well said Karen, I was thinking along the same lines.
Sometimes I see him and he is totally acting and working up the crowd. To state the abvious, God is not in this.
Lee thanks for the link
Karen,
…I just get a picture of them sitting in a back room somewhere laughing just like that…not in the spirit, but laughing at just what kind of ridiculous nonsense the sheeple are going to buy into next…
Well, I DO believe they do this ‘in the spirit’ but NOT by the Holy Spirit.
All I could think of when you mentioned the Germans was that Fawlty Towers episode where Basil Fawlty (John Cleese) gets knocked on the head and goes crazy with his German guests. “Don’t mention the war… I did but I think I got away with it…”
I really wouldn’t read to much into the whole weird way he speaks and elongates words. I think that’s a learned thing. I remember when I was pastoring a Pentecostal Church and we had an evangelist come, and every second or third word ended with duh… Like, Lorduh. One lady in my congregation asked to see my notes, and I sheepishly showed her my “notes”. Tick marks counting how many times this evangelist did that.
I think you will find that during the past week or so, all videos of Todd Bentley that his supporters would deem embarrasing have all but disappeared from Google and YouTube. If this shows nothing else, it shows that these people know that there is something wrong — and want to hide it. Try finding some videos and you will see what I mean — the same kind of thing happened with Toronto and Brownsville. Well, if this revival is of God, and it is supposed to sweep the world, then is this how you handle it — hide it? I have to say that when the true gospel of Jesus is preached and represented, the world may hate it, but there is nothing to be ashamed of — Paul said, “I am not ashamed of the gospel…” The idea that God keeps us humble by making us act like idiots is a nice excuse, but a lie. God keeps us humble by revealing to us Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Of that we need never be ashamed.
As the Mother of two children with Asperger Syndrome,I was truly sickened to see Todd Bentley exploit a little boy with Spina Bifida last night.The young boy truly believed that he was being healed,but it was obvious to all viewing that he had not been.He struggled around the stage on his tiny,atrophied legs,it made me feel like crying.The boy obviously already was able to walk in this way,because his mother had a cane,or something,that he had been using. It was pethetic and heartbreaking. Todd announced that the boy was healed,but there was no change.He left with tiny deformed legs and feet. I kept thinking how sad and tragic,when the boy realizes,the next day,the next week,that absolutely nothing has changed.He’s going ti realize that he was used,as part of a show.His faith in God may be destroyed,or at least seriously damaged. I used to take my kids to a faith healer in Akron,Ohio,until I realized that it was hurting them.Family members would get my kids psyched up for weeks,telling them they would be healed at the meeting.After the service,my daughter would be upset and angry at God for not healing her.Her faith would be shaken.After all,if Jesus was healing ALL these other people,why not her?One day I had enough,and said never again.We continue to pray for healing,but love and adore our kids,as they are.They are God’s greatest blessing to me. Please pray for all the children who are being exploited at the Florida “Revival”,they will suffer aftereffects,and not good ones.
alease, sad but great post, it is truely sickening to see these things. Many poor folk will be left without faith when this is over and it is tragic! I also saw another little boy being told he was healed of Aspergers, he clearly wasnt but Todd bammed him (pushed him over) regardless. Makes you want to scream. I find it really difficult to have christian love for these men who wallow in self glory while the little ones continue to suffer.
“”"We continue to pray for healing,but love and adore our kids,as they are.They are God’s greatest blessing to me. “”"
A wonderful Christian attitude.
(hug)
I do not fit in the same camp as you all. I live with a life-threatening, chronic illness and have a son with autism/no speech. I guess i feel like the woman who spent all she had on doctors with no help. ANyone of the above have similar issues? Any one of you been desperate, as she was? Hmmm. Or are you too busy thinking how you can judge what’s going on? Really. When I was healthy and had the time to sit back and “fruit inspect” I would have said exactly what you’re saying. I like to think that it takes a lot of energy to be angry and resentful, whereas the people you see worshiping at the FO are dancing, happy, and some completely desperate for God’s hand to heal (I’m with David, who said I will dance unto the Lord and become even MORE UNDIGNIFIED than this”). i’d rather be thought of as a complete fool, than angry, mean and “right”—and I would be VERY careful about telling God what he is and is NOT doing, like those who looked at Jesus—born out of wedlock; followers who were mostly laughingstocks; had the gall to say He and God were one(!); and who did ridiculous things like spit in the mud and smear it on someone’s face!! No wonder they said ‘Enough is Enough—let’s kill him to stop this madness!
I’m with Gamaliel in Acts speaking of Peter et al..If this is of God, no one can stop it.” Sorry if it’s got tatoos and loud BAMS with it. Doesn’t fit nicely with pristine, clean whitewashed theology, does it? Using the foolish to confound the wise, even if not everyone gets healed, I’d still rather be joyful and trust God than angry and bitter.
Greta, first a big hug, you really are amongst people who care and want to see you free of the illness you so bravely fight everyday.
I certainly am not angry and resentful, I think you may be mistaking the anxiety and the desire for truth for anger and resent? Thats ok, I think you’ll still fit in here as I havent seen any angry people here at all.
I am a practioner with Autism/Aspergers, dedicated to my job and working along with the coping strategies that people I work with need. Bamming them does not work, try it and see. While Todd Bentley et al bam these vulnerable children and thier vulnerable parents and tell “your healed” when they are not, many of us continue to provide practicle help and commitment to aid in overcoming the disabling effects of autism.
I totally understand the desperation of parents, I understand why they desperately seek healing, my own son was tested for autism when he was 4 years old so in a way I can empathise with the worry and the anxiety.
I also believe the Lord can heal, however I am not seeing it in these meetings. Rather I am seeing people seeking a sign and being given a false one. They can believe it if they want to, I wont resent them. I do however find it hard to embrace the leaders who prey on the vulnerable, and it become particularly sensitive to me when I see they bamming children with aspergers and autism.
Please read alease Davis post above and understand how hard it is NOT to be moved by such stories.
We wait on the Lord to heal, he doesnt always do this in our time but he certainly warns us to ‘test all things’ because people come masquerading as apostles of Chirst but are in fact deceitful (2Corrinth 5).
As for Joy and Peace, oh I certainly have the peace that surpasses all understanding, I wake up with joy Knowing that jesus is MY Lord. It really is that personal. My heart jumps when I observe the creation of God and I sing daily the words to “how great thou art”. Dont think for one minute that the ‘unbammed’ do not rejoice, we certainly do.
Have to go, in the meantime, I wish you well and wish we could be there to offer support to you and all that you cope with.
Hi, Greta…welcome to the site.
I can appreciate the real needs of your particular situation. I would imagine that if I faced similar challenges, I’d be more prone to setting aside my reservations about folks like Todd Bentley.
However, as Pete points out above, do we really see anything but false hope being promoted in Lakeland?
After more than two months of meetings, we still have yet to see any concrete proof of the more dramatic healing/miracle stories. We’ve not met any of the “previously dead.” We’ve not heard from any of the doctors who signed their death certificates (because so far, none really were actually signed?). Although we’ve been thrilled with talk about stuff like dead relatives sitting up in their coffins, no funeral home staff have been interviewed…or anything like that.
Certainly, if even a fraction of these more extreme stories had happened, somebody somewhere would have by now documented it. Media folks are always looking for a good story.
The fact that none of this stuff has been documented, although it’s all been trumpeted to much fanfare and applause, makes me believe that very little of it has actually happened the way it was reported.
To me, this says that much of the Lakeland excitement is built around false hopes and false hype. Lies, actually.
I think we would be building an idol out of physical health if we would believe that God doesn’t care about truth versus lies…that God thinks none of this matters as long as some people are experiencing relief from their ailments.
I am not angry, and I am certainly not “resentful.” Rather, I am grieved that people are accepting the “Shaka Bam Bam” show and all the crazy stories of angels and “third heaven” visits as representative of the God of the Bible. The God of the universe, the God who created us and sustains us and bought us with the blood of His one and only Son, does not lie. He does not contradict Himself. And He doesn’t peddle false hope. Why would we, His redeemed, even WANT to believe that He does these things?
On a side note – since I left “Charismania,” I find that the way I praise God has grown so much deeper. I used to dance and whirl with everyone else…until one day, it suddenly hit me, as I watched everyone around me as they did their “Holy Ghost Aerobics,” just WHAT they were praising God for during these times. At our former church, at least, we were dancing and praising God mostly for the things of this earth that we wanted Him to do for us. In fact, there was almost a manipulative force at work in our praises and dances. We were often told from the pulpit that we needed to praise God like the victory was already ours. “Victory” specifically meant that we’d already been healed, or that we’d already received our financial blessing.
What motivated me to dance and praise – I’m ashamed to say! – was that I was believing God to intervene in a specific situation in my life. I would honestly work hard to focus my thoughts (during these times of praise and dance) so that I could imagine and envision what it would be like if I’d just received the news that my particular prayer concern had been answered. And then I would dance accordingly.
One day, though, it hit me – was God truly honored by this sort of fleshly, need-based praise? What did God think of how we were trying to manipulate Him? Would we praise and dance anyway, even if NONE of our immediate earthly needs were going to be met? Would we praise Him even if we were never healed or never received financial “abundance”?
Since that day – I can remember precisely where I was standing and what I was wearing – my praise life has actually grown deeper, the farther I’ve walked away from Charismania and the closer I’ve aligned myself to the God of the Bible rather than the god of our imaginings.
Anyway…Greta, I didn’t mean to preach a mini sermon. As I said, I really do feel for you in your situation. Blessings to you!
So glad to get a response so quickly……i have to go home soon to a horrible computer.
Anyway, to speak of “no documentation”—that is simply not the case. The fact of the matter as it closely hits home is this: I have a precious friend whose husband was all but dead. He had only 30% of a heart, could barely get himself to the bathroom—a congential heart defect that in time/with age continued to deteriorate to a point of complete exhaustion to go up their 3 steps to the their front door. In desperation (as the woman with the issue of blood, and with NO hope with doctors) they went down to Lakeland a few weeks ago. He WAS healed, ran around the tent (or wherever it was) several times, and looks like a different person. I have an email from them that specifically states that he went back to his doctor. His doctor tested him and stood there w/ a scrunched up face. THE DOCTOR wrote in his notes and said to my friend he couldn’t understand how much differently things looked and sounded (the blood flow sounded completely normal). My friend looks like a different person. When you have 30% blood flow to your heart, you’d look deathly too. THat WAS his last hope, but also he said he was so hungry for God that it didn’t matter what happened. Yet I’ve seen the change with my own eyes.
What more do we want? This is in my face. I could get bent out of shape and irritate because of the years we’ve prayed for our conditions and have not been healed, why not me LORD? Yet I’m ECSTATIC that He saw fit to heal my friend! And so many others! Maybe you all who don’t go to Lakeland to see and experience and who don’t have an incurable illness HAVE THE LUXURY of sitting back — in health and clear breathing, with food on your table, and healthy kids. I’m not trying to be mean, and I so see and have experienced the same disgust w/ charismatics in my own life. I’ve seen huge excess, nonsense, etc….but again, I’d rather be aligned with humility WHEREVER it exists. God fills the hungry and blesses the merciful (Sermon on the Mount is great to remember here) And He seems to get a distinct pleasure out of using seemingly immature, foolish people sometimes to simply show He’s doing it! And He seems to like to offend our logic and brain at times! The Bible doesn’t say “Blessed are those who have perfect doctrine, who have God fitting nicely into a box of their own making (idolatry). I have come from high church, pentecostal, and back to “mainstream”—but whatever……….the point I think is most important is that GOD LOOKS ON THE HEART of worshippers, no matter how they worship! Isn’t it His job to sift and test and work with. If you don’t feel comfortable with the FO or a certain worship, you could simply bow out and thank God for what seems to resonate within you, but please keep the “God works this way, and not that way…or those people are crazy” to yourselves in humility. I sometimes sing in Catholic church (gasp)—does that mean I align myself w/ the whore of Babylon? There are precious souls who love Jesus there, believe it or not. And some who don’t. I regularly attend a church where sometimes people express worship in a completely different way. So what?! Who are we to believe that we’ve got God all figured out to sit on our mountain and look down and ciphon out “good and bad” among Christ’s Body? Whew, I’d be careful doing that!
Enought said. I get a bit worked up with this because I’ve been blown out of the water several times w/ judgements I’ve made of people, churches, etc….and had humiliations of my own making when I tried so desperately to make sense out things that I saw and experienced. There is much wisdom in simply keeping quiet and waiting. After you’ve been diagnosed w/ terminal something or saddled with a situation to which you’ve poured everything you have and are into—and come up with nothing, you are changed and humbled. The result is I point a finger at my face and say: YOU DON’T HAVE ANSWERS TO ANYTHING. Stay hungry and humble and God WILL fill you and cause you to grow no matter what. If God wants to heal people in Lakeland, why not? If he wants to create flowers and beauty that no human being will ever see, so what? He sees it. It makes no sense to us, but so what? If he chooses to use a donkey, so what?
Greta,
As wonderful as your friend’s story is, it’s still not what I was referring to.
Lakeland is claiming something like 23 “resurrections.” NOT healings of people who were “all but dead,” but people who were truly DEAD, people who were supposedly lying in coffins but are now alive again.
It’s great that there are healings taking place at Lakeland. I am not anti-healing. Not by any means.
But I am anti-lying. This site is not about detracting from the good that may be happening at those meetings. This site is about a call for the truth.
greta, nice testimony to the grace of God you share here.
This thread and conversation is called “…the 13th resurrection…” Would you please comment on the video we are discussing here as it seems you have avoided it in your comments? What do you think of the dead man praising Todd and God when Todd called his spirit from heaven? Or when he heard Todds voice in heaven?
What do you think of the flock calling for more “fire” as soon as they see him resurrected? It seems rather odd that they would call for ‘more fire’
You will probably tell by now that most of us here are questioning the false angelic messages and the false ‘anointings’ that accompany them. We are not questioning Gods ability to heal.
We are also calling into question those who profess to be apostles of Christ yet interact daily with angels of light that bring a new message to them. False angels that can indeed appear with lying signs and wonders according to Scripture (2nd Thess 2:9).
This entire outpouring is appearing to be worshipping angels, I have heard Todd clearly shouting the “Angels, Angels, Angels” and his persistant references to them rather than the word is alarming. There is certainly no doubt that his purpose is to introduce the church to his angels. Someimes he can be heard mentioning Jesus name but it often sounds as though he thinks Jesus is just a sidekick to the church, its the supernatural angels that the church need to believe in.
We are not ashamed of doctrine are we? the Bible is full of it. If doctrine is so trivial in this revival and people are steering clear of it, then how will you know if false doctrine is being taught by those who speak from the platform?
We are clearly admonisheds that the ‘word of God” must be used to set things straight and is profitable for DOCTRINE (2Tim 3:16).
If we test ‘truth’ on the basis of feelings or healings then we are bound to be tossed around by every wind of DOCTRINE (Ephesians 4:14).
Timothy tells us to ‘Watch our life and DOCTRINE closely” (1st Timothy 4:16). Why is ‘life’ associated with ‘doctrine’ if doctrine doesnt matter?
I guess the doctrine that has been handed down to the apostles and the church for thousands of years IS actually offending the minds of those embracing this outpouring. I believe that is where the real offense is. They consistantly attack the church for not believing their messages.
I do find it offensive when people say that Jesus spitting in the mud and gently rubbing the mans eyes is the equivelent to Todd kicking someone in the face or kneeing them in the groin! This misuse of the word of God is hidious! Yet so badly needed by those supporting Todds ministry. It is hidious to handle the word of God so deceitfully(2nd Corinth 4:2).
That people can choose so freely to go to the third heavens and and that Angels present an operating table and slam Todd on it before putting their hands inside him and performing their operation is also an hidious deception.
I’m not judging anyone on lifestyle or haircut or tattos.
In Christ with you
Pete
Regarding healing from Autism: check out Ephraimweb.org
A mom of Jacob with Down’s Syndrome and Autism was taken to and prayed for at the Toronto Area Christian Fellowship. The next few days he began to be different child, MUCH improved…please read mom’s testimony.
(I’ve never written more than a couple of times on any boards like this, this is weird–I’m on a vacation with my autistic son, without all the work of regular home life !)
Thank you to the person who replied regarding her job with Autism/Aspergers kids: YAY to you. My hat’s off to you. You must have a HUGE heart. These kids are incredibly precious and a gift to the world, no matter if they’re healed or not. As for me, I just so badly want my son to be able to look at me and say Mommy OR to say “I love you, MOMMY”—I would shout from my roof! After 4 years of a stress I only dreamed of, we’ve seen regression after praying, speech therapy, special schooling, diets……..AHHH. In fact my illness (ICU for 3 days) came VERY soon after he was diagnosed. Doc said stress and a virus nearly put me in a coma–and my pancreas shut down—now 5-6 shots a day to stay alive and 5+glucose monitorings a day. I am needled out! I also have 2 older sons, my middle also has special needs that drain everyone also. I am completely at the end of myself…….big need all around me, all the time. I teeter back and forth between hoping in God for help and staying hungry for Him, and just giving up and not caring anymore, not praying, etc. It’s been 4 years of unrelenting stress and continual downward spiral, financially, maritally, and family-wise. I’m in what psychologists call “double-bind”—where either way I turn to make a change, it means more pain. YET-I am so blessed to hear that God is moving in a way that is sweeping the nations. There were 47 nations represented the other night. All that to say, I am half-making plans to go to Lakeland—even to be in the atmosphere of HOPE and joy and people showing signs of healing. I don’t care what happens. I’m completely spent and hungry.
Making sense? thanks for your kind words.
You do make sense greta, lets put the discussion aside and focus more on you and your son and family. You are in our prayers, we are all in this world together waiting for that glorious appearance of our beloved Savior Jesus Christ.
Every tear will be wiped away (Rev 21), and the whole of creation redeemed (Romans 8). We do have trial and tribulation in this world, and surely as God was present with his Son suffering on the cross, so we know that God is present with us in this life and the sufferings it brings us.
We may disagree on this whole Lakeland thing but at the end of the day our attention should be on helping the needy and praying and helping those in need. We dont have the whole picture yet but God does and one day we will.
Maybe we will meet in glory, all of us in the presence of the God of Truth and Justice.
I am thrilled that you havent given up regardless of your illness and struggle to cope. A lot of people do so credit to you, you are a blessing to us.
Please be careful as you make plans to go to Lakeland, thats all I can caution at this point.
God loves you, pray earnestly before you go. Please know you are our family in Christ and because of Him, we care.
(hug)
Guess I’ll say my one last thing……since I was accused of not arguing doctrine of Todd Bentley’s…..anyway, if people here want to stay on that track I’ll say this: if you’re so interested in being biblically accurate:
DOESN’T THE BIBLE SAY IF YOU HAVE ANYTHING against someone to go to that person (and not set up a blog page to go on and on and on about their faults)? As I said before these people—even if they’re off the wall— are NOT here to defend and answer their accusers, so what’s the point of you all doing what you’re doing? To agree with yourselves? I can tell it just gets emotions going and self-righteousness bolstered. Maybe I’m not seeing the point of all this, what is it? Maybe someone can set me straight?
Greta, The point is that Todd Bentley has expressed a lot of weird things which have been written,t recorded and videotaped, that are not biblical or even Christian. It concerns us because he is holding a revival in the name of Jesus, yet seems to put more emphasis and credit in angels. He also states that he has an angel with him who is the same angel that William Branham claimed to have. William Branham was a proven heretic who claimed he couldn’t perform any healilngs without his angel being present. T.B. also gives detailed accounts of being taken up in a beam of light by angels and laying on a table while they operated on him. It sounds more like an alien abduction then an encounter with holy angels. There is also a YouTube video where T.B. says God told him to kick an elderly woman in the face with his boot, ram into an asian guy (knocking out his tooth), and leg drop a pastor. All of these acts are assault and battery. Yet, when T.B. tells this story to church groups, the congregation just laughs and approve, accepting it all as really from God. Anyone in their right frame of mind would know this behavior is bizzare and crazy.
It just has a lot of people concerned and that is why they are speaking out about it here and on other blogs.
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. If you go to Lakeland believing for a miracle, go in faith and God will be with you.
I do know one person who got healed when he went to Lakeland and its medically proven. He went to Lakeland with diabetes and took insulin every day. When he returned home, he kept getting sick so he went to the doctor. The doctor told him he didn’t have diabetes anymore and to stop taking insulin, as it was making him sick! God TV has asked to interview him and is going to air his testimony.
God Bless,
Jan
another point you may be missing greta is that these people totally misrepresent God and Christianity daily, why is it wrong for us to present the other side of the story?
Its ok for them to present God in such a hidious way but its not ok for us to present them doing their ’shiek a boom bams’?
Anyway, hope you are doing ok, have thought about you a lot since you shared your story.
Hi, Greta…
Sorry I haven’t responded to your question sooner.
If you look throughout the Bible, you will see multiple examples of Paul and the other Apostles (and Jesus) confronting and speaking out against false teachings.
Holding up a public teaching to the light of Scripture and analyzing it to see how well it lines up with God’s written Word is NOT the same as having a conflict with a PERSON as an INDIVIDUAL.
I didn’t think I would need to state what to me is the obvious, but I will go ahead and say that I have nothing against Todd Bentley as a person. I’ve never met the man. He is probably a very nice guy. He’s never done me wrong personally.
But I DO take major exception to a lot of Todd’s TEACHINGS. Many of them do not agree with God’s Word. Even a passing knowledge of the Bible makes it easy to see that a lot of the things Todd’s “God” says to him in visions and trips to heaven are NOT things that the God of the Bible would say. Since the God of the Bible – the God whom I worship and serve – has promised us that He does not change and will not contradict Himself in His written Word, we can know with confidence that a lot of Todd’s teachings are NOT from the Lord.
Again, this is NOT personal between me (or any of us) and Todd Bentley. The guidelines in Matthew 18 about dealing with personal offenses have nothing to do with evaluating and speaking out against his false teachings.
But Greta…
I do understand the appeal that the Lakeland meetings hold for you. I have total sympathy for why sites like this one make you angry.
On the TB KICKS SOMEONE post area Roger (the one on the video who was kicked) replies on July 7. He has asked that anyone with questions to please ask him directly. He is doing really well physically and says he praises God for what has occurred.
Lots and lots of perspectives here. Again, at the end of the day it seems there are essentially two camps: PAIN-FREE, HEALTHY people that either disagree or agree with TB or whatever is happening or maybe take a Wait & See attitude OR the terminally ill, chronically sick people who want to be well. Please hear me, believe me: when you have a life-threatening/terminal illness, theories, beliefs, doctrines, etc….dim in the light of whether or not you’ll survive through the month of July……..make sense?
greta why do you find it necessary to defend Todds senseless need to kick the man in the 1st place?
The man was clearly brainwashed or giving in to peer pressure to start with! though he went down clearly hurt, he had to stand up smiling with embarrasment. Also, he would feel obligated to defend his religious conviction in front of the deluded crowd.
Was he healed of Colon cancer? Believe me, he wasnt.
How many acts of his nonesensicle violence must you defend?
How about the woman in this video:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6NRBneHze7M
or the man whose head he nearly kicks off in this one:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jWmPZRVMIek
Why do you defend such lies?
Believe me I totally sympathise with your struggle, and wish we could do something practicle to help you out, BUT I certainly do not sypathise with your willingness to follow a false prophet and justify everything he does.
If Toddy set fire to a building you would all be there saying “well God set fire to the burning bush so Toddy is perfectly within his rights to set fire to anything”
This delusion is strong. Wake up.
Only God can heal someone. Its not a person. You can’t turn on healing at will. Sometimes we have to wait for God’s timing. Sometimes healing comes instantanously. I have experienced both. I have grabbed the heam of Jesus’ garmet (by faith) and wouldn’t let go until I was well. If it takes going to Lakeland to activate your faith, if it takes believing God will do it through a person like Todd Bentley, if it takes going to a doctor , if it takes going to church and being prayed for by the prayer team, whatever way you can release your faith, that is what you must do. God honors your FAITH and belief in his word. “He sent His word and HEALED them……..”
I also agree with Charismania. I have nothing personal against T.B.
Wow – do you allow anything but skeptics on your site? I am a 52 year old pastor who had a miserable allergic sinus condition for over 40 years. When I got sick and tired of my people being sick and tired, I invited some folks who had been to Toronto (Bill and Carol Dew) to my church. After a bunch of my folks got healed, they asked if there was anything I needed. They prayed for my sinus condition and it immediately left. A week later, it came back, and I thought, “Oh well, it didn’t work.” But then I remembered the follow up instructions to rebuke the problem if it showed up again. I did, and it left again. This happened a few more times, and finally it left for good. That was in 2002, and I have been free ever since, even when I traveled to the Ohio Valley last year. Gripe, whine and moan about the weirdness all you want, but there is real power in this stuff.
“”"”Gripe, whine and moan about the weirdness all you want”"”"
Thanks for recognsing it for what it is. Have you griped or moaned about it at all?
Steve and Pete:
Since when is discernment or testing the spirits whining?
When it’s unBiblical – based on outward appearances or our own cultural tastes rather than being something truly offensive to God as defined in Scripture. There’s plenty of truly weird stuff which would freak us out in the Bible that He was just fine with. For example – what if a “prophet” today lay on his side naked for an extended period of time?
Well, first of all, it’s NOT unbiblical to question supposed prophets. In Acts, the Bereans are praised for doing just such a thing.
Secondly, to my knowledge, none of this is based on Todd’s outward appearance. It IS based on his message. Which, when examined closely, is a repeat of Latter Rain Heresy. That should end the debate, but since many proponents are so desperate for a “move” of God, they will open their doors to anything.
Hi Michael, I totally agree with you. Steve said it was wierdness so I commended him for recognising it for what it is.
Steve:
“”"For example – what if a “prophet” today lay on his side naked for an extended period of time?”"”
As a pastor, what would you do Steve? What if people began stripping in your Church?
Do you think ‘prophet’ Bob jones got it right after all when he asked women to strip in his office to receive a ‘word’ from the Lord?
Using your argument you can justify anything.
My life has not been “pain free” in any sense.To say that only pain free people would not accept Todd Bentleys claims is simply not true.I suffer from bipolar depression,two of my kids have a form of autism,my husband almost died of a heart attack.I have been really desperate for help from God in my time.Before I was Put on antidepressant meds for the bipolar,I used to wake up and cry in the morning.I used to pray to die during the night,the pain of manic depression is that bad.If I believed for one second that Jesus was using Bentley to heal people,and Bentley was proclaiming the truth…I would get on the next plane to Florida.Unfortunately,what I have seen and heard is heretical teachings,bizarre behaviors,admiration for proven false prophets,and now Bentley having an “affair” of some sort(although perhaps not sexual.)Jesus does heal people sometimes,I do believe in miracles.I have seen people get hurt very badly by following after fake “faith healers.I suffered years of mental anguish,because a faith healer equated disbelief in his healings with committing the unpardonable sin.I did not realize that this was just a fear tactic,to keep people from questioning his ministry.
Hi Alease, I too have struggled with Clinical Depression most of my adult life (actually since adolescence). Thankfully it is in remission because of the medication I am on. i find that mental illness is one of the most misunderstood afflictions in the Christian church. It saddens me that something that is to provide a source of comfort (faith), can be turned around by corrupt individuals to serve their own egos. I hope you find strength and comfort in your faith.