Saturday night, an alert commenter (thanks, Jan!) posted that Geraldo was going to be interviewing Todd Bentley on Fox News. We decided to stay up to watch that segment. It was a bit disappointing to have to wait until the last ten minutes of the show…especially since the piece was essentially more of the same – Todd Bentley proclaiming the great miracles to the world, with talk of “all kinds of documentation,” but no actual interviews with attending physicians of all the dead people who are now supposedly raised to life or anything like that.
I also thought it was…interesting, and extremely convenient, to say the least, the way that Todd’s sound feed seemed to cut out at the crucial moment of Geraldo’s only tough question. But hey, judge for yourself. Here’s the video:
I have no problems with people who are not Christian not believing what is happening, why would they?
However, any Christian who actually BELIEVES the Bible should really be asking the question ;
“Why are these miracles not being seen in my church?”.
About 2,000 years ago the LORD sent his disciples out with the command to preach the gospel of the kingdom, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out demons.
It is the fact the Gospel in North America has been so watered down, that even the so-called Christians are surprised and doubtful when God continues to do what He has always done.
The only thing that stopped Jesus from healing when He was here in the flesh, was unbelief.
Please note this girl had MULTIPLE organ failures and TODD was no were in sight.
Mr T, Robbie Williams, Status quo and other pop idols have all been credited with raising people out of coma’s.
Geraldo calls Todd to account and out of all the “Dead are rising, lame are walking, amputee’s are growing limbs, the blind are seeing through glass eyes, the deaf are hearing”
Todd presents ONLY a kidney problem appearing to have disappeared and maybe 2 xrays that are a couple of weeks apart that testify to the glory and power coming out of his ‘hand ‘
Cant wait for Geraldo to interview the 22 dead.
I certainly dont want to see deceptions like these in my church, do you?
That testimony from the doctor at Stanford University Medical Center about the miraculously healed kidneys was thrilling!
He said he had never seen anything like it, and ends up with: “I am a believer.”
He may not have meant that in the sense of having become a believer in Christ, but certainly at least a believer in miracles.
These are exciting times.
I am looking forward to more documentation of unmistakable miracles coming out of what is happening in Lakeland.
There are a lot of privacy laws concerning medical records, and I am sure it will be a challenging process to get the information out to the public. But at least one doctor is convinced already.
What happened with the sound at the end of this video posted above? That was when Geraldo was asking Todd to give him the financial records, or IRS documents showing the profits coming in from the offerings and he also asked him to leave the medical records so they could investigate them.
Wow i have never Seen So Much in the realm of Sarcastic christians all over this with Todd Bentaly Why …Some one Explain Why ?? He Gives Honer to God and Glory to Jesus and lifts up There name Not His own Name People have been Saved and People have been Delivered and Healed Physically and emotionally I am Shocked at why So many christians are against This Moveing May be it is the Same Ones that stand back and say nothing about Abortion or Homosexuality or sexshops or Slip a Night Time peek at Porn Wow Where has GODS people Gone has anyone Lived 2000 years ago when the Holy spirit Fell what was it Truley Like. what was it Like to have a Visitaion from a Angel Wow that would be Awsome. My Point is This Every person that writes in to Todd and or Goes on stage and Claims a Healing I will Belive in Faith That God has Healed Them. If they are Not being Honest Than they Will stand before God For Lying Not Todd so we Need Not To bash others in the Name of Man Made Religion and Trust Truly in the word of GOD ad Not on our own Understanding May God Bless all of Us and Save the LOST
It was the start of a good interview even though Jesus was only mentioned one time. I won’t lay any blame on that though, it unfortunately cut way too short. But this you can trust, if Geraldo hears the claims about the dead being raised (which I obviously don’t think he had [he surely would have mentioned it] by the time of the interview) gets the green light from his producers to go down and investigate this revival, he will go and he will DIG DEEP into their claims.
It will be very interesting to see what comes out of it.
To lean towards the skeptical side, a few medically documented miracles don’t validate the hundreds upon hundreds of miracles that have been claimed from the pulpit. Nor does a few documented miracles validate all of what is ocurring and being taught in Lakeland as a move of God. Jesus made it very clear that in the end times that false Christs and prophets would move in great signs and wonders as well!
Matthew 24:24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and flase prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Keep in mind that a legitimate medically verifiable miracle MUST contain at least two important pieces of evidence to be confirmed.
1. Medical documentation that the illness/ ailment/ etc. was there in the first place.
2. Medical documentation that the illness/ ailment/ etc. is no longer present in the patient.
And these two pieces of proof should follow some guidlines as well.
For example:
CLAIM: Someone healed miraculously of a broken arm.
PROOF: (1) Dated xray showing actual break with signed report from radiologist. (2) Dated xray showing no break with signed report from same radiologist (or same radiology dept.) that confirms that natural healing could not have taken place in time frame between initial and current xray.
POSSIBLY FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) Xray of healed break only. (3) Undated xrays. (4) Before and after xrays dated too far apart. (5) Missing of one or both signed radiology reports.
CLAIM: Someone has been healed of brain tumor.
PROOF: (1) Dated printout of MRI CAT scan showing tumor with signed report from radiologist verifying existence of tumor. (2) Dated printout of MRI CAT scan showing absence of previously found tumor with a signed report from same radiologist (or same radiology dept.) that confirms that the tumor no longer exists in same patient and has not been removed by any medical/ surgical/ treatment and/ or through medicine.
POSSIBLY FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) MRI CAT scan of only a brain with no tumor. (3) Undated MRI CAT scans. (4) Missing of one or both signed radiology reports.
CLAIM: Someone has been raised from the dead.
PROOF: (1) Signed Coroner’s report and/or signed autopsy report. (2) Death Certificate (must be signed by coroner). (3) Obituary copy, ONLY with the addition of signed Death Certificate.
ADDITIONAL PROOF (once cadaver’s custody has been transferred from Coroner/Hospital)
(1) Signed Funeral Home Director’s report; which should contain time stamp of custody transfer, embalming time stamp(s), cosmetic time stamp(s), presentation time stamp(s). (2) Copy of funeral program, and/or wake visitation program ONLY in addition to signed Funeral Home Director’s report.
POSSIBLE FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) Missing of signed Coroner’s report. (3) Missing of signed Death Certificate. (4) Unsigned Death Certificate. (5) Obituary without signed Death Certificate.
Anything short of these qualifications should NOT be claimed as a medically documented miracle, because they simply are not. And to do so, is to be a poor steward of God’s miraculous power in our midst. And it is extreme irresponsibility towards the giftings and callings which Christ needed to die for and be raised from the dead to give to the church for the equipping of the saints to fulfill the Great Commission in the earth.
Jesus went through so much to bring the miraculous into the life of the believer, the least we can do is to be responsible stewards and document it in an unchallengeable way so that He can receive the glory He deserves for it. When we fail to do so, we discredit Him amongst the lost rather than reveal Him to the lost. And often the glory He deserves ends up going to individuals because only believers end up believing.
Thank you Pete. Medically verifying a miracle (in most cases) doesn’t require much more than sitting through the process of just one additional doctor visit and maybe spending an hour or at the administration office window. Lakeland should already have hundreds of reports with the needed qualifications if God is in fact performing all of the claimed miracles. And they should have started receiving those reports within the first week of the revival if the follow up on the church’s behalf would have been done with integrity. It really is not that difficult (again, in most cases) to do!
And on the other hand, what is so bad about not making the actual CLAIM of healing until you have the proof. You can still pray for healing “live”. You can still report the apparent healings, but with the acknowledgement that they are only ALLEDGED at that time. And you can still publicly call for agreement in faith on the whole thing and praise God for what you are believing He will do or has already done. But is irresponsible for leaders to claim miracles that have not been medically verified; POINT BLANK!
We all know what kind of excitement and hype that can arise when a freight train of testimonies of the miraculous hit the stage, and that is anywhere. And corporate faith in the meeting does increase in the room during that as well, which is a very good thing. But to exaggerate and/or flat out bare false witness in front of the congregation concerning claims and testimonies to achieve that type of faith is simply wrong and unacceptable. If we really want revival, think about how God dealt with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11 when they did such things! I wonder how many would be slain in the Spirit at our meetings in comparison to how many would be struck dead?
I believe that fear is probably at the root it of the lack of efforts towards verifying the revival’s claims. Maybe it would be discovered that God isn’t performing miracles in the high volume as claimed. So what!! Let’s give Him the glory for the ones He is doing, renounce the false claims and not worry about the numbers! Maybe leaders feel they would be discredited in the eyes of the revival’s followers and/or the crowds would leave and they would be stuck with an overwhelming debt from the property and buildings they’ve taken on? Maybe the individuals who are attending from all over the earth fear they would lose faith concerning their own healings or ministry/anointing promises if it ALL isn’t true?
Well, maybe there needs to be some humble folks that need to receive that for what it is and what it is not and just chalk it up as a “swing and a miss” on their ability to hear accurately from God. It really is not that big of a job for the grace of God to restore someone that has been deceived. You repent, you let God heal you, you go to the word and find the discernment you were missing and move on in a greater wisdom. Mercy always triumphs over judgement!
Great post Danyael, funny thing came to mind as I was reading it, just like they cant provide any evidence for those ‘resurrected from the dead’ they cant provide evidence of anyone who has died like Ananias and Sapphira due to questioning their ministry!
I’d like them to produce evidence for both cases, those resurrected and those who have died for questioning this revival
Any offers?
I read your post this morning before I left for work, and now I am on my lunch hour. I thought about it all morning and was greived. You are right, some people on these sites are here just to bash Todd and the revival in Lakeland period. There are others here who are skeptical and want proof of the healings and testimonies of people being raised from the dead. Then there are those like me, who have been in the Charismatic movement a long time and are concerned about the Todd promoting angel sitings and asking angels to do things for him (like bring him finances) and the trips he claims to take to the Third Heaven, apparently new age or the extra biblical experiences.
On another note, its apparent that many people believe this healing revival is from God and the Holy Spirit is moving. People are coming to Lakeland from all over the United States and the world to get an impartation to bring back to their countries (and churches). The question is, if its not real, why are so many people coming … and… what is happening in their churches when they take it back? The testimonies point to more outpouring and more revival reaching the whole earth. Most people are finding out about it through the internet and GOD-TV, which is reaching millions of people. So, if its fake, why are so many people deceived? If its real, they are taking it all over the earth.
Its really a wait and see thing but I agree, its unbiblical and wrong for us to say unkind things about Todd, his associates, or his tatooed appearance. I don’t think its wrong to “question” his belief in the supernatural, asking angels to perform certain things, and his extra-heavenly visits.
If you have felt offended by anything I have posted on this blog, please forgive me.
I’ve asked myself similar questions to the one you asked above;
“The question is, if its not real, why are so many people coming … and… what is happening in their churches when they take it back?”
And I believe the Lord has led me to several conclusions. (1) It is agreeable through most denominations and persuasions across the earth, that we may very well be at the beginning of the end times. (2) When scripture is read in context, there is NOWHERE in scripture where there is any kind of an end time revival prophesied for the Gentile church. On the contrary, the scriptures declares quite the opposite for believers during the last days. (3) There is and end time “revival” prophesied for the sons of Jacob, but only AFTER the age of the Gentiles has ended. (4) There IS and end times movement amongst believers that will be fronted by false Christs, false apostles, and false prophets which can be seen as a false revival. And these false leaders WILL operate in great lying signs and wonders, in which even the elect may be deceived through them. (5) And that the modern prophetic movement doctrines are entirely void of all of these above mentioned truths, makes me think that they possibly are that very group of people.
So, the question to me is no longer “how can these things be happening if it isn’t God?” And it now reads “is this God or the devil?”
The scriptures have made it clear to me that the devil will have an incredibly successful counterfeit revival in the end times and that MANY will fall for it. And during the end times, the remnant MUST contend for the faith. And by comparison to those who are (will be) a part of what will be a GREAT falling away, the remnant will be few.
I just sent an e-mail to Fox News thanking them for this report and asking them to do a follow up. I am sure that a short note from others would encourage them to look a little deeper into Todd Bentley.
It is prophesied that there will be a great falling away in the last days, not a great revival. All of this is very sobering and difficult!
Several years ago when Rick Joyner was in Jacksonville, FL, having MorningStar conferences, he spoke about a great civil war that was coming to the body of Christ Christians were going to have to choose sides. I reasoned, if this was true, of course I would be on the side with all the prophetic guys. I thought it was going to be the prophetic movement vs organized denominationalism. Sad to say, now that its beginning to happen, I’m not able to take their side. I’m on the opposite side and I’m really flat out shocked and surprised. I don’t trust the prophetic movement anymore. At one time I was jumping in the river and now I’m cautious to go near it.
This is what I meant to post above, I don’t know why, but it didn’t post.
Danyael wrote: . (2) When scripture is read in context, there is NOWHERE in scripture where there is any kind of an end time revival prophesied for the Gentile church. On the contrary, the scriptures declares quite the opposite for believers during the last days………..
Ditto Jan…
I still go to the Church that had Rick Joyner there…they are being somewhat cautious but are almost trying to somehow replicate Lakeland, FL, Redding, CA, and yes North Carolina…Rick’s Church. My wife and I have been seeking the Word of God for some of the “questionable” activities that have been witnessed and have never really questioned some things. My family are now encouraging from within before some type of angel revival breaks out.
Please pray…by the way…yes God is mighty to save.
His Love is incredible…His greatest love was His Son Jesus Christ who saved us from the wrath of God.
For God sooooo loved the world, that He gave His One and only Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
His Love was demonstrated, He came and defeated sin AND death AND hell…why do we keep demanding He come down again to the point we are “telling God what to do”?
Yes, only the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin and the Father draws all men to them…but we must speak the gospel…whether they are raised from the dead or NOT!
You are exactly right on the “civil war” prophesy. It is in fact nothing new, and actually came from Bob Jones. But most leaders in the prophetic movement quote, teach, and even “prophesy” each other’s words and doctrines. It mostly goes unnoticed because it is never challenged. The scripture does teach and prophesy that something like this will occur, just not in the way they perceive it to be because they may be on the deceived side of the “great walling away” having believed a “great lie”.
Jesus warned His apostles prophetically about there own deaths and the motives of their killers in John 16 when He said,
1 “These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.”
That prophesy was fulfilled in the deaths of both Jesus and the apostles. And so it is very possible that it may be true for believers in the end days because Jesus explains this right in the middle of a 3+ chapters long explanation of the ministry of the Holy Spirit that is for all believers’ lives. Not to take an out of context and extra revelatory view on it that would more model the teaching method of the modern prophetic movement that would say “it was true for them, so it is true for us”. But if we by chance come into a time in the future where the church is divided and has something like a “civil war” and one side is putting those to death on the other side because they think they are doing God service, we need to remember passages like this. And those who “prophesied” this civil war will feel very justified in their actions.
Sound too far fetched? Give it a few of years and wait till the supporters of the Codex Vaticanus & Codex Sinaiticus manuscripts (which have been used for all modern translations) push to add the books of “Shepherd of Hermes” and the “Gospel of Barnabus” to the Bible. Which were rejected initially, but have been part of those manuscripts since their discovery. They will appear to be this “new and great discovery” and will be added to the Bible claiming to “complete” the cannon of scripture.
The danger with that is the book of Revelations will be removed and replaced by these books. And if that isn’t bad enough (knowing the warning in Rev.22:19) these books have commands for believers to:
(1) Take “the name” of the beast.
(2) Give up to the beast.
(3) Form a One-World Government.
(4) Kill those not receiving his “name.” (thinking they do God service?)
(5 )Worship female virgins. (see the catholic tie in?)
(6) Receive another spirit.
(7) Seek power.
(8) Avoid marriage and permit fornication.
(9) Abstain from fasting. (this is already evidenced in some of the newer translations in Mark 9:29 where Jesus said concerning a demon the disciples couldn’t cast out, “this type only comes out by much prayer and fasting. Modern translations only read “by much prayer” the ” and fasting” has been omitted)
See how it could tie in during the end times for believers from many different back rounds and religions would accept a Bible like that and think it is the word of God?
In addition, all of this would fall into line with what Revelations says will be occurring in the end times and warns us against. But if this new Bible is the only one that may even be lawful in those days for believers to posses (possibly even only a New Testament), how could anyone in those times ever discern the truth about what would be occurring in the world around them?
And believe me, this is the present plan of the elitist of the world as they march towards their “New World Order”, to have a one world religion (as prophesied). People will still be able to worship a “uniformally accepted Jesus” and posses a “uniformally accepted Bible” in this one world religion. But it WILL present a different Jesus and a different gospel. It will be an anti Christ, but presented as the real Christ and nearly the whole world, including Israel, will buy into it. Scripture tells us these things WILL occur.
The modern prophetic movement is full of doctrines and practices that will eventually play right into this. Their self proclaimed apostles and prophets are ALL pushing towards this one unified church that they plan to reign over with super natural powers as super apostles and super prophets that will not be able to be killed, and have supernatural health etc. (more Bob Jones-KC Prophets- Manifested Sons etc. theology). And the current outpouring is the beginning of that move according to THEM. And that is THEIR words, we’ve all heard it.
Don’t get me wrong, even in spite of the mess down in Lakeland and other places and corrupt versions of the Bible being used to teach doctrine, we can’t get to that level of deception right from here. Many other things must occur on both the world government scope and within the church before significant changes like that can actually begin to happen. But I personally do believe it will be in our lifetime and probably happen a lot quicker than we dare to think it can. But what HAS already happened is that some big steps have been taken in that direction. And it is the long term conditioning for those changes is what we are currently experiencing.
And while the internet and libraries are not yet under governmental regulation (which is already being pushed), we need to do our research now to prepare us for the end times! One of the most important things we can do in preparation for that hour is, making sure that we are studying the most trustworthy and accurate translation of the Bible and get the ones that are not, off of our shelves. And to equip our personal libraries with good resources that will help us study the original languages accurately, Biblical encyclopedias, etc. The days may be getting close to when we can no longer purchase such things or do research without regulated intervention.
Is anyone scared yet? I think we should be to some degree, but only with the confidence that the Lord will take of us as we put His righteousness and His kingdom first in our lives.
And for those who have never studied where your favorite version(s) of the Bible has come from, I STRONGLY suggest that now is the time to do it. Research “who” the translators were and “how” they translated it. Research “what” manuscripts they translated from and then research “where” those manuscripts came from and “who” put them together. But I warn you ahead of time, be prepared to possibly have your feelings hurt. Because when you do the research you will very easily see where the word of God has been tampered with by translators and may find your favorite translation(s) right there on the top of the list. I’ve never met anyone yet who dared take this journey (myself included) he didn’t get really p.o.’d when faced with the evidences they uncovered.
Below is a link to a series of videos on youtube where Gail Riplinger goes into this subject in GREAT detail. She has critics and those who don’t agree with her, but I do because 100% of the research I did completely on my own about this is all sited in her research. She spent six solid years just researching her initial publication and she knows her stuff.
The civil war thing is a demonstration of how pathetic Bob Jones messages are. I think Rick Joyner let the mask slip when he said that through their ministry there is going to be
“an entirely new definition of Christianity”
As if somehow Jesus failed when he said “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail”
Jones, Bickle and Joyner realy believe the church failed and need them to rebuild it. Yuk! They certainly deify themselves while bringing Jesus down.
As for Gayle riplinger, I certainly wouldnt trust her as an historian or a manuscript scholar. But thats another story..
A pastor pronounced “healed” by Todd Bentley Dies 8 Days Later.-Pastor Justin Peters contacted 7 people who went up on stage and said they felt the power of God go through them, but Todd Bentley proclaimed them healed, and none of the 7 …
Thanks for sharing the You Tube videos. I watched several of them last night and it was very interesting. I do think Gayle Ripplinger found some gross errors in the modern translations. I have heard the NIV was not accurate and lots of churches refuse to use it as a reference when preaching, but I never heard that about the New King James. I thought that one was very similar to the King James.
I think we can get over balanced about any issue regarding what is coming on the earth and we shouldn’t be in fear or start hording up accurate Bibles. We will always have the Holy Spirit who is there to guide us into all truth. God still speaks to us individually and we know His voice. I think we need to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might and trust in him with all our hearts and not lean to our own understanding. He will never leave us or forsake us.
Pete: I don’t necessarily think Mike Bickle has the attitudes described above, unless he’s drastically changed. I have been to IHOP 3 times and to Kansas City even before IHOP, when Bickle was pastor of Metro Christian Fellowship and had the Passion for Jesus conferences. He always claimed to live a fasted livestyle as an intercessor and the 24/7 prayer furnance was birhed in his heart long before it became a reality. His goal was to equip forerunners and help people start their own IHOPs. He felt the Lord was leading him to facilitate prayer and worship that never stopped but continued 24/7 until his return. Mike Bickle came to here where I live to help us when we started an IHOP.
Jan thanks for sharing that, I really dont want to be misrepresenting Mike but as a Kansas City Prophet I would believe that Mike endorsed the civil war prophecies of Joyner, Jones and Cain.
Infact after the scandel of Bob jones sexual antics became known, Mike Bickle can be heard sympathising with the victims but still insisting that the ‘anointing’ on B Jones was still “greater than ever”
(Mike Bickle “public disciplining of Bob Jones’ 1990 audio tape).
Well it was under this anointing that the God gave Bob the ‘civil war’ Vision, That Joyner went on say would redifine christianity.
There’s a great book that documents all of this called ‘The counterfiet revival’ by Hank Hanagraaff.
P.S Can I just add that Gail Riplinger should be approached with caution. I would highly recommend the book “The King James Controversy” By James white, not only does this book offer a scholarly insight into how we get our Bible but also lays the Gail Riplinger case wide open.
Anyway, this is another subject and one I approached with interest back in the mid 90s when the KJ Only things was at its peak.
I know somewhat about the Kansas City prophets, and from what I remember from hearing back in the 90s, is Mike Bickle stopped participating with them and saw them in gross error. Since it was in his church (I think it was the Metro Christian Vineyard at that time), it fell apart and the all went their separate ways. I have never heard anything different. I’m not trying to undermine what you posted, but if this is just your observation or from a gut feeling and not from any concrete facts, maybe you should email Mike Bickle or his ministry and find out where he stands on this.
I have never put Mike Bickle and Rick Joyner together as good friends but I really don’t know if they are or not. I’ve never heard either of them mention one another and their ministries are very different from each other. I have always gravitated towards Mike Bickle’s teaching and felt Rick Joyner was too radical.
Hi Jan
Again thanks for the information, I am interested in finding out if Mike Bickle did repent from the KCP, or did a full expose on them? I hope he did.
I am remembering him from back in the mid 90s when he was very much into the KCPs, so my info may very well be out of date (sounds like it is).
Did he write anything exposing them or why he renounced them?
I could be speaking out of turn (probably am), but I was under the distinct impression that Mike Bickle was part and parcel of the KCP. And I’ve done quite a lot of reading about the whole movement. I think I would have by now stumbled upon some sort of “retraction letter” if such a thing were to exist (if Bickle really had officially separated himself from the rest of those folks).
But again – I don’t know for sure. It’s all quite confusing. Perhaps this distancing was more subtle, something that he’s avoided proclaiming publicly so as not to offend his former cohorts?
Because Mike is so prolific in writing it would be great if he released a good statement or book even . Many high ranking people who have left false movements have written books to demonstrate their repentance and to reach the people whom they had previousely decieved. I think we owe it to the crowds to warn them this way if we have been in such major positions and have decieved many. A lot of people do not know he is no longer associated with this current ‘in crowd’. I had no idea, though I am pleased to hear it.
Like you said, perhaps he doesnt want to offend his cohorts. I gues his small article in Charisma mag was a step in the right direction. I’ll certainly no longer make reference to him when discussing the KCPs, even though he was quite instrumental in building them up.
Here’s a comment I posted on another blog about IHOP/Bickle:
I wish to point out that SadParent’s experience of being shunned is not unique. Last year I met an individual who was caught up in Bickle’s teachings and the ‘modern prophetic.’ When I began to question some of her beliefs she backed off a bit. When I showed her scripture about end-times apostasy, the NT verses warning of false prophets/teachers and specific evidence of scripture twisting of one of those in the modern prophetic, she promptly insisted I cease ALL communication with her.
At the time we were both going to the same class one day a week. I nearly stopped going as she had been going to the class longer than I had. However, I believe the Holy Spirit led me to continue. I saw her a few times at the class and she TOTALLY avoided me. She eventually quit going. Putting SadParent’s experience with my own (and one other, I can’t find the source just now) points to a pattern of behavior that is very cult-like.
The duplicitous nature of IHOP is evidenced in their “Affirmations and Denials related to past controversies” page. The first question one must ask is why would there be a need for such a disclaimer if there wasn’t some real controversy there to begin with? Here’s the link:
“WE AFFIRM that the army in Joel 2:1–11 was an ungodly Babylonian army that destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. We believe that this passage has a double fulfillment as it points to the Antichrist’s army that will attack Israel at the end of the age. We affirm that Joel was prophesying of the lifestyle of godly believers in Joel 2:12–17.
WE DENY Joel 2:1–11 describes the end-time church.
Explanation: The term “Joel’s Army” has been used to signify the people who walk out the principles of prayer with fasting as taught in Joel 2:12–17. The term has been used much like “Joseph Company”, “Gideon Band” or “David Company” to signify the people who embraced the godly qualities that Joel taught about prayer, fasting and wholehearted obedience. Paul Cain had a prophetic word about a “Joel’s Army in training,” referring to a group of people who would give themselves to prayer and fasting according to Joel 2:12–17. When used like this, “Joel’s Army” does not refer specifically to the destroying army mentioned in Joel 2:1–11, but to people who walk out the Joel 2:12–17 lifestyle. The misunderstanding comes from giving the title “Joel’s Army” to both the destroying army (Joel 2:1–11) and the group of people who give themselves to fasting and prayer (Joel 2:12–17).
I would have to ask: Why have so many names for a prayer and fasting movement? It only leads to confusion. And, why the term ‘Joel’s Army’ since this sounds militaristic? Frankly, Mike Bickle knew full well what the real meaning of Joel’s Army was at the time this term was adopted. He knew all about Latter Rain doctrine as many of his associates were actively involved in these heresies. See here:
Bickle was initially part of Kansas City Fellowship in KC; and, Bob Jones and Paul Cain provided “foundational revelation.” Never mind that these guys were wrong many times on their prophecies, their lies exposing them as false prophets. Bickle asserts that NT foretelling prophecy can be less than 100% accurate because “we’re under Grace,” the New Covenant. The thing is I cannot find biblical justification for that. Of course, the less than 100% accuracy on prophesy also came from a vision from Bob Jones; so, how can we argue with that (note: sarcasm).
Continuing on with the link to IHOP’s “Affirmation and Denials…” page:
Taking a close look at “The Tabernacle of David” we see Bickle quoting a number of scriptures:
“WE AFFIRM the Holy Spirit is orchestrating a global worship and prayer movement that will operate in great authority (Luke 18:7–8; Matthew 21:13; Revelation 5:8, 8:3–5, 22:17; Isaiah 62:6–7; Joel 2:12–17 and 32). This prayer movement will operate in the spirit of the Tabernacle of David.”
None of these scriptures point to a “global worship and prayer movement” as Bickle’s premise asserts. The Luke and Matthew passages speak of prayer in a general sense, the Joel scripture is about fasting and prayer following repentance of the people after their land was destroyed by an army of locusts. The first two Revelation passages refer to a heavenly events to earthly prayers; but, nothing about a 24 hour ‘movement.’ The Revelation 22:17 says nothing about prayer whatsoever. The Isaiah passage speaks of those who “will never be silent day or night” but, again this says nothing about a ‘global prayer movement that will operate in great authority.’
“WE DENY the restoration of the tabernacle of David is the same as the end-time prayer movement.”
Well, this statement is a direct contradiction to an article by Bickle in 2000 in Charisma magazine.
I believe God will fully restore the tabernacle of David–which is the very embodiment of intercessory worship before the beauty, holiness and glory of God–in the generation in which the Lord returns (see Acts 15:16-17). I believe it will be the means of releasing the fullness of salvation and revival for all the nations. Through this model of intercessory worship, the Great Commission will be fulfilled so that every tribe, tongue and nation will be present on the last day (see Rev. 5:9; 7: 9-10; 14:6; 15:4; Matt. 24:14). [emphasis mine]
Going back to the IHOP website:
“Though Amos 9:11 is not prophesying primarily about 24/7 intercessory worship, it will be a foundational reality in the release of Jesus’ worldwide rule over the nations. The prophetic word given to Mike Bickle in May 1983 was that “God would release 24 hour-a-day prayer in the spirit of the Tabernacle of David.” In other words, it would involve prophetic singers and musicians. Worship and intercession is not in itself the actual restoration of David’s tabernacle!”
Once again, there are more contradictions.
Going back the other link, here’s the article following Bickle’s words at the top. It’s David Orton’s “The Restoration of David’s Tabernacle…What is it?”
Every outpouring of the Spirit signals a transition from an old order to the new. And it usually creates conflict.
In obedience to a vision, Peter’s ground-breaking visit to Cornelius shook the status quo, taking the gospel and the outpouring of the Spirit beyond its original Jewish confines. But some Judaizers demanded that the new Gentile believers submit to circumcision, and, therefore, to ritual law for salvation. In effect they were saying, “The old way of doing it is God’s way!” How was this “new thing” (Isa 43:19) to be understood? It was totally outside their frame of reference, it flew in the face of religious protocol – in fact, from where they sat, you could not come to God outside of their revelation. To put it colloquially, it was either their way or the highway!
To resolve the issue the apostles and elders gathered in Jerusalem. After hearing Peter’s testimony of the outpouring of the Spirit on the Gentiles, and after much heated debate, James stood up, resolving the problem by reading from the prophet Amos:
“The words of the prophets are in agreement with this (ie with Peter’s experience of the Gentile outpouring), as it is written, “After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name…!” (Acts 15:15-17 NIV).
James interpreted the new thing that God was doing (the outpouring of the Spirit on the Gentiles) as the restoration of David’s tabernacle.
But what does the restoration of David’s tabernacle actually mean?
Transition to a new order – a time for change! [emphasis mine]
Note that Acts 15:15-17 is a reference to Amos 9:11. Bickle clarifies that the Amos passage DOES NOT refer to a restoration of the Tabernacle of David on the IHOP website; but, here it is out of context:
God is bringing back the plumbline of worship “as it used to be” (Amos 9:11; from the passage quoted by James in Acts 15). Worship not according to our traditional patterns or even our contemporary culture, but according to the Tabernacle of David.
Now, I understand this is an older article; but, has he publicly corrected his scriptural error? No. One is left not knowing what to believe about Mike Bickle.
Lee, I don’t want to sound unkind, but you can pick apart any ministry to the bones and find things wrong with it. As long as there are humans in a church therewill not be a perfect church.
I believe Mike Bickle is a man of God, seeking the truth, a prayer warrior and intercessor. I don’t think he would dwell in the past i.e. the Kansas City prophets. I’m sure he is way past all that garbage and moving on with the work God has given him to do. Let’s look at today, not a decade ago. It happened and you can’t retract it or take it back. Each one of us has to stand before God and give an account of OUR OWN life, so why should we, the created beings hold other’s accountable for the sins of the past that God has forgiven them for?
That’s all I want to say. You can research every single person in ministry and find something to nail that person with, even Billy Graham. Soon there won’t be any credible Christian ministers left on the face of the earth.
Its true, Christians tend to shoot their wounded instead of walking in love. Love covers a multitude of sins.
Like I said, I’m not trying to be ugly or anything, but I think some people are getting into heresy hunting. AND…. what makes them so wrong and YOU so right? They are the ones who are out on the fore front, stepping out by faith and doing things they believe God is commissioning them to do. They are the ones the devil tries to tear down with critics and gossip.
While I’m sorry you are offended, I’m not sorry for posting the truth. The fact remains that Mike Bickle took a multitude of scriptures out of context to try to prove his own point based on a ‘prophetic word given to [him] in May of 1983;’ and, he continues to do this same thing. What Bickle should have done was tested this prophesy in light of scripture. Instead, he, like other modern false prophets, chose to make this prophesy fit into scripture by twisting original contexts.
Proper interpretation of scripture is by exegesis; i.e., reading the text in its full context and drawing the meaning out. The opposite of exegesis is eisegesis which does the reverse; i.e., just what Bickle did regarding the Tabernacle of David. All of us are probably guilty of eisegesis at times. For example, someone may believe that God wants us to be happy. This individual may take scripture which speaks of ‘joy’ and use these to back up their initial claim that God wants us to be happy. The reality is that God does not promise happiness. In fact, He promises trials and tribulations.
This doesn’t mean to say that Mike Bickle is not a nice guy (I’ve never met him) or that he doesn’t have a big heart. He’s probably a nicer guy than I. And, I’ve never said or intimated that I’m some biblical scholar. But, the fact is that Bickle HAS had many false teachings over the years; and, unless, he’s publicly corrected these public teachings (or the ones strictly within IHOP that aren’t as public), then he’s doing all a disservice and leading his students into error.
It all comes down to this: do you believe the Bible to be the infallible, inerrant Word of God [Jesus is the Word made flesh (John 1:1-18)]? If you do — and I’m assuming you do — then it should offend you when someone misquotes scripture. Now, I understand that no one has perfect theology and all will make mistakes — including me — however when one does this over and over it is inexcusable. Especially a well-known teacher.
From what I’ve heard, Bickle almost, if not always, states that you should check his teachings against scripture. Well, I’ve seen accounts on the internet of individuals within IHOP who did question some of the teachings and these people were labeled as having ‘religious’ or ‘critical’ spirits. They were subsequently booted out of IHOP.
So, I merely did what Bickle himself asks of his students and now you criticize me for stating the truth. Jan, just like you said, we all answer to God and not man.
<…so why should we, the created beings hold other’s accountable for the sins of the past that God has forgiven them for?
Assuming Bickle repented for these things (You or I really have no idea), then why hasn’t he publicly corrected these false teachings? He has tried to sweep them under the carpet, so to speak, rather than correct them.
I believe Mike Bickle is a man of God, seeking the truth, a prayer warrior and intercessor. I don’t think he would dwell in the past i.e. the Kansas City prophets. I’m sure he is way past all that garbage and moving on with the work God has given him to do.
You are stating a belief about Bickle; but, how do you know for sure? You can’t truly know his heart; and, I understand, you can’t know mine.
Charles Stanley is one minister/teacher who I believe is really straight up when I measure his teachings against the Word of God. I have a number of his books; and, again, I find his teachings biblically-based. However, he teaches tithing which is NOT true for Christians as that’s part of the Mosaic Law that Christ fulfilled on the cross. I can’t say why he does this; but, God knows the reason why. So, while I really like Charles Stanley, I do not follow him — a mere man. I follow Jesus as revealed in His Word.
Let God [through His Word] be true and every man a liar [Romans 3:4].
Hi Lee, I always think of the scripture in Corinthians where the Apostle Paul spoke about himself and Apolos, admonishing listeners that at the end of the day we shouldnt exalt men, one plants one waters but God makes the seed grow, neither man nor angel. Its such an humble attitude and one we appear to be overlooking in this day and age of super apostles.
I have one big question for Todd Bentley: where are the media??? He is talking about the resurrections and miracles and that the media, the press, would come… But I can’t find anything on CNN for example. One evening Bentley said: “we have a phonecall from CNN!” But the last weeks I checked and found nothing. If it is as big as Bentley suggests, why isn’t the news on CNN, BBC etc.? And where are the resurrected people? I haven’t seen them on stage in Lakeland…
When Jesus healed someone, that person was healed totally! He used tot send some to the priest to check, but it were clear healings. So I’m waiting for proof… But don’t trust your eyes to much… trust Jesus!
The 16th one was onstage. The thing is, she was supposedly raised from the dead on April 2 — the first day of Bentley in Lakeland. Read this contradictory story here:
Thanks Lee. I’m gonna look at it. By the way, I’m from the Netherlands and my question is only one of the many questions I have about this whole outpouring… I’ve seen much of the events on God-tv, but I’m think that something is very wrong. It looks like a mixture of spirits…
At BEST, it’s a mixture. That doesn’t mean there aren’t well meaning Holy Spirit indwelled Christians in attendance who just aren’t aware of Bentley’s roots to false prophets (and he himself is one), Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army/etc. abberant doctrine. However, a little leaven (yeast) leavens the whole.
You have to admit that they are spreading the gospel all over the world through God TV and the internet. How many of us have the resources to do something like that? They are preaching Jesus and giving glory to God.
Maybe this really is the Holy Spirit moving in spite of Todd Bentley’s bizzare background and beliefs. Time will tell and we do need to keep an open mind.
(I go back and forth because there is too many good things happening with this revival that outweigh the negative).
That Christ died for our sins,
that He was buried,
and that He was raised from the dead. (1 Cor 15:3,4)
I’ve listened to many nights of the FL outpouring and have NEVER heard the Gospel preached. As a teacher for Christ, one should “know nothing but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2)” and “preach Christ crucified (1 Cor 1:23)”.
Isn’t that one test for true vs. false preaching & teaching? God Bless everyone, and thanks Watchman for observing the gates of the sheepfold to keep the enemy at bay. -Brenda
You are right. Todd is preaching another jesus and another gospel.
The Holy Sprit:
1) guides into all Truth
2) points to Jesus (the Gospel) and NEVER glorifies Himself
3) convicts of sin leading to repentance.
The Holy Spirit is not an ‘it’ or a ‘force.’ He is not to be manipulated. As part of the Triune Godhead, He is to be reverentially feared. I don’t see any of this in Lakeland from the relatively little that I’ve personally seen. However, there are numerous accounts that all say this same thing.
Given the foundation of Lakeland, none of this should be surprising.
I agree with Brenda. I hear the word ‘gospel’ sometimes in Lakeland, but which gospel? Paul and Peter preached in Acts the gospel of Jesus who died for our sins at the cross so we can recieve forgiveness and everlasting life if we repent and believe in Jesus Christ. So we could be saved. Saved from an eternity without God, an eternity in hell. And that is something I haven’t heard so clearly yet from Bentley. I saw one altarcall, but it was again about the Jesus you need for your needs and the glory. But why do we need Jesus? To be saved from hell, saved from a life without God. In Lakeland it is to much about the ‘glory’, about signs and wonders… less about salvation. Why has there not have been one meeting yet where they only bring the true gospel and no miracles? I think that not many people would come… When Jesus started to preach His heavy message about the suffering and the cross, many people left Him. He even asked His disciples if they wanted to leave too… But Peter said: ‘Where else should we go? You are the only One who speaks words of life…’
And I think the problem is that the believers follow the miracles instead of how it should be: miracles follow the believers…
I dont believe that Godtv is proclaiming the true Gospel, it does occasionally air a program where the Gospel is presented but blink and you’ll miss it.
I wached the premiere of the Gdtv in England, it originally aired as ‘The God channel” and was anything but Christian. In the first week, Ken Copeland presented his born again rich jesus, Benny presented his ‘anointing’ and Creflo dollar and Morris Cerullo presented whatever they could to bring in the money. In the meantime John Avanzini, Jesse Duplantis and Gloria Copeland laughed all the way to the bank.
and, while it doesnt get any worse than this, wendy and Rorey then introduced us all to the magnificant Peter Popoff…. :[
I was gutted but I tuned in every day for the 1st few months hoping to see some good teachers on there. Well I think I remember hearing one or two who appeared to be ok only to find out that they had some real strange doctrines later on.
Rodney howard browne was given maximum airtime as soon as he hit the headlines. Rick joyner and the prophets were on almost every day. We went from hearing nothing but how to obey and follow Christ crucified and Risen to hearing nothing but how to dip into the wealth and electric power of Christ the millionaire and hsi wealthy angels.
It was the very first channel in the UK that proffessed to be Christian, we waited with baited breath to see who was going to be on and we got nothing but hype and a false jesus. I do not believe the ‘God Channel’ is presenting the gospel to the world. It is a false gospel.
God is God. The Lord will manifest healings through ANYONE who believes and follows the Name of Jesus because that’s what the Lord said: IN MY NAME they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. So we need to stop running after people whom God uses to recover the sick and allow God to use us where we are.
We make healing so UNcommon that people will run anywhere to get help. If this was a common blessing then there would be no chance of a strange fire consuming people’s lives.
Our Church branch’s healing services center around footwashing, Holy Communion and confession of any unforgiveness we might have. The healings follow naturally after that.
The healings we have had were “proven” by a simple x ray. They show trauma repaired or just not there any more. As the pastor/bishop I have taught the people to expect and thank God for such healings when they feel they have happened and to go to the doctor and have them verified. That’s only common sense!
I say again that if we would only just concentrate on pleasing God, forgiving others, being merciful and the old ways of the Faith we would save ourselves a lot of grief.
I am the oldest person in our church and we don’t have problems with getting young people to our church based upon reasonable music, strict teachings of the Faith and lots and lots of emphasis on forgiveness in Christ.
We are all here exposing false prophets and carefully examining what we are hearing. We are not questioning Gods ability to heal, its great that your church is using Gods word as its guide. Nice to hear from you.
I just saw on Youtube a video where someone is asking pastors and leaders from churches who have been to Lakeland if ‘they had seen antything unscriptual’. All the pastors said it was truly biblical…. But I heard people (leaders) who have been there and had their doubts. And I think the man who made the video asked the wrong question. He should have asked this: ‘Did you HEAR anything unscriptual’. I have seen about 25 meetings and listened to what was told on stage by Todd Bentley, David Tomberline or Ryan Wyatt… and there were really unscriptual things!
Jim wrote: “any Christian who actually BELIEVES the Bible should really be asking the question ;
“Why are these miracles not being seen in my church?”.
Because we don’t have pastors with tattoos and pierced noses and lips who are willing to beat up on people. Funny, that.
Actually I see miracles every day. Every breath is a miracle. “consider the lilies of the field” and the birds of the air? Those are miracles.
I guess the everyday provision of God for daily life and for his miraculous raising people from spiritual death and granting them repentance unto salvation isn’t good enough for these people who, as Jesus rebuked in the Gospels “a wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign.”
Gotta have a ‘god’ who will make my life more comfortable yup.
Hi Pete! Hi everyone! So… this is where all of you are. … I have been doing some searching on T.B. and have discovered some things that are CLEARLY unbiblical and downright “new age.” (Besides what we ALREADY know.)…. I’m not sure if any of you have heard about his teachings on his style of prayer, but they are clearly leading people into extremely dangerous practices. …Type in your “search” the following…”The Glory Cloud Of Revelation And Prophetic Mantles,” and click on both Part 1 and Part 2 and let me know what you think. Also, type in “The False Revival (comparison) ” and watch the manifestations that are taking place in these so-called “revivals” and see how they compare to the practices of meditation and arousing the serpent power within, and we all know who the serpent represents. …I can almost hear Satan and his demons laughing, as I watch clips of people experiencing “holy laughter” because they feel as if they have succeeded in leading some believers away from their first love, Jesus, …all because some of us want an “experience” instead of experiencing God in His presence as we pour out our hearts to Him in prayer, and hear Him speaking to us through His Word. Have we forgotten that God desires us to turn to HIM and how He warns us of the spiritual battle that rages against us? ….. 1 Peter 5:6-9 says…”Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that He may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on Him because He cares for you. Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith…” We are definitely living in the end times… and the world is being prepared for the anti-christ. …………..Hi again, Pete. I’m sorry to hear you don’t have good biblical teaching on t.v. where you live, but, then again, I don’t think there are very many preachers on t.v. who preach the pure Word of God no matter WHAT part of the world we live in. Thankfully you seem like a strong Christian, and you will continue to stand strong because the foundation of your life is built upon the Rock. …Matthew 7:24-27 …(I will respond to your last post on “Todd and Believing in the Angel” in a few days) God bless you, Pete and everyone.
Wouldnt it have been fantastic if they’d have interviewed him at the local morgue?
Or with a before and after pic of an healed amputee?
Can’t wait for the follow up from Geraldo, maybe he will gather a few the raised dead ones and have them on his show (I wont hold my breath).
I have no problems with people who are not Christian not believing what is happening, why would they?
However, any Christian who actually BELIEVES the Bible should really be asking the question ;
“Why are these miracles not being seen in my church?”.
About 2,000 years ago the LORD sent his disciples out with the command to preach the gospel of the kingdom, heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead and cast out demons.
It is the fact the Gospel in North America has been so watered down, that even the so-called Christians are surprised and doubtful when God continues to do what He has always done.
The only thing that stopped Jesus from healing when He was here in the flesh, was unbelief.
There is not difference today.
Perhaps the vulnerable at Lakeland will be flocking to Robbie williams concerts soon…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1025389/Cellar-coma-girl-wakes-seven-weeks-played-Robbie-Williams-songs.htm
Please note this girl had MULTIPLE organ failures and TODD was no were in sight.
Mr T, Robbie Williams, Status quo and other pop idols have all been credited with raising people out of coma’s.
Geraldo calls Todd to account and out of all the “Dead are rising, lame are walking, amputee’s are growing limbs, the blind are seeing through glass eyes, the deaf are hearing”
Todd presents ONLY a kidney problem appearing to have disappeared and maybe 2 xrays that are a couple of weeks apart that testify to the glory and power coming out of his ‘hand ‘
Cant wait for Geraldo to interview the 22 dead.
I certainly dont want to see deceptions like these in my church, do you?
That testimony from the doctor at Stanford University Medical Center about the miraculously healed kidneys was thrilling!
He said he had never seen anything like it, and ends up with: “I am a believer.”
He may not have meant that in the sense of having become a believer in Christ, but certainly at least a believer in miracles.
These are exciting times.
I am looking forward to more documentation of unmistakable miracles coming out of what is happening in Lakeland.
There are a lot of privacy laws concerning medical records, and I am sure it will be a challenging process to get the information out to the public. But at least one doctor is convinced already.
Praise God!
“..am looking forward to more documentation of unmistakable miracles coming out of what is happening in Lakeland…”"
Dont hold your breath
What happened with the sound at the end of this video posted above? That was when Geraldo was asking Todd to give him the financial records, or IRS documents showing the profits coming in from the offerings and he also asked him to leave the medical records so they could investigate them.
Wow i have never Seen So Much in the realm of Sarcastic christians all over this with Todd Bentaly Why …Some one Explain Why ?? He Gives Honer to God and Glory to Jesus and lifts up There name Not His own Name People have been Saved and People have been Delivered and Healed Physically and emotionally I am Shocked at why So many christians are against This Moveing May be it is the Same Ones that stand back and say nothing about Abortion or Homosexuality or sexshops or Slip a Night Time peek at Porn Wow Where has GODS people Gone has anyone Lived 2000 years ago when the Holy spirit Fell what was it Truley Like. what was it Like to have a Visitaion from a Angel Wow that would be Awsome. My Point is This Every person that writes in to Todd and or Goes on stage and Claims a Healing I will Belive in Faith That God has Healed Them. If they are Not being Honest Than they Will stand before God For Lying Not Todd so we Need Not To bash others in the Name of Man Made Religion and Trust Truly in the word of GOD ad Not on our own Understanding May God Bless all of Us and Save the LOST
It was the start of a good interview even though Jesus was only mentioned one time. I won’t lay any blame on that though, it unfortunately cut way too short. But this you can trust, if Geraldo hears the claims about the dead being raised (which I obviously don’t think he had [he surely would have mentioned it] by the time of the interview) gets the green light from his producers to go down and investigate this revival, he will go and he will DIG DEEP into their claims.
It will be very interesting to see what comes out of it.
To lean towards the skeptical side, a few medically documented miracles don’t validate the hundreds upon hundreds of miracles that have been claimed from the pulpit. Nor does a few documented miracles validate all of what is ocurring and being taught in Lakeland as a move of God. Jesus made it very clear that in the end times that false Christs and prophets would move in great signs and wonders as well!
Matthew 24:24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and flase prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Keep in mind that a legitimate medically verifiable miracle MUST contain at least two important pieces of evidence to be confirmed.
1. Medical documentation that the illness/ ailment/ etc. was there in the first place.
2. Medical documentation that the illness/ ailment/ etc. is no longer present in the patient.
And these two pieces of proof should follow some guidlines as well.
For example:
CLAIM: Someone healed miraculously of a broken arm.
PROOF: (1) Dated xray showing actual break with signed report from radiologist. (2) Dated xray showing no break with signed report from same radiologist (or same radiology dept.) that confirms that natural healing could not have taken place in time frame between initial and current xray.
POSSIBLY FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) Xray of healed break only. (3) Undated xrays. (4) Before and after xrays dated too far apart. (5) Missing of one or both signed radiology reports.
CLAIM: Someone has been healed of brain tumor.
PROOF: (1) Dated printout of MRI CAT scan showing tumor with signed report from radiologist verifying existence of tumor. (2) Dated printout of MRI CAT scan showing absence of previously found tumor with a signed report from same radiologist (or same radiology dept.) that confirms that the tumor no longer exists in same patient and has not been removed by any medical/ surgical/ treatment and/ or through medicine.
POSSIBLY FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) MRI CAT scan of only a brain with no tumor. (3) Undated MRI CAT scans. (4) Missing of one or both signed radiology reports.
CLAIM: Someone has been raised from the dead.
PROOF: (1) Signed Coroner’s report and/or signed autopsy report. (2) Death Certificate (must be signed by coroner). (3) Obituary copy, ONLY with the addition of signed Death Certificate.
ADDITIONAL PROOF (once cadaver’s custody has been transferred from Coroner/Hospital)
(1) Signed Funeral Home Director’s report; which should contain time stamp of custody transfer, embalming time stamp(s), cosmetic time stamp(s), presentation time stamp(s). (2) Copy of funeral program, and/or wake visitation program ONLY in addition to signed Funeral Home Director’s report.
POSSIBLE FALLIBLE PROOF: (1) Personal testimonies void of medical documentation. (2) Missing of signed Coroner’s report. (3) Missing of signed Death Certificate. (4) Unsigned Death Certificate. (5) Obituary without signed Death Certificate.
Anything short of these qualifications should NOT be claimed as a medically documented miracle, because they simply are not. And to do so, is to be a poor steward of God’s miraculous power in our midst. And it is extreme irresponsibility towards the giftings and callings which Christ needed to die for and be raised from the dead to give to the church for the equipping of the saints to fulfill the Great Commission in the earth.
Jesus went through so much to bring the miraculous into the life of the believer, the least we can do is to be responsible stewards and document it in an unchallengeable way so that He can receive the glory He deserves for it. When we fail to do so, we discredit Him amongst the lost rather than reveal Him to the lost. And often the glory He deserves ends up going to individuals because only believers end up believing.
Danyael
You’re on the ball Danyael.
Wouldnt mind corresponding with you privately through email.
blogsfrompete@yahoo.com
Not sure if I am allowed to post my email address here? Apologies to Charismania if not, please delete if I’m breaking the rules.
Pete,
Thank you Pete. Medically verifying a miracle (in most cases) doesn’t require much more than sitting through the process of just one additional doctor visit and maybe spending an hour or at the administration office window. Lakeland should already have hundreds of reports with the needed qualifications if God is in fact performing all of the claimed miracles. And they should have started receiving those reports within the first week of the revival if the follow up on the church’s behalf would have been done with integrity. It really is not that difficult (again, in most cases) to do!
And on the other hand, what is so bad about not making the actual CLAIM of healing until you have the proof. You can still pray for healing “live”. You can still report the apparent healings, but with the acknowledgement that they are only ALLEDGED at that time. And you can still publicly call for agreement in faith on the whole thing and praise God for what you are believing He will do or has already done. But is irresponsible for leaders to claim miracles that have not been medically verified; POINT BLANK!
We all know what kind of excitement and hype that can arise when a freight train of testimonies of the miraculous hit the stage, and that is anywhere. And corporate faith in the meeting does increase in the room during that as well, which is a very good thing. But to exaggerate and/or flat out bare false witness in front of the congregation concerning claims and testimonies to achieve that type of faith is simply wrong and unacceptable. If we really want revival, think about how God dealt with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-11 when they did such things! I wonder how many would be slain in the Spirit at our meetings in comparison to how many would be struck dead?
I believe that fear is probably at the root it of the lack of efforts towards verifying the revival’s claims. Maybe it would be discovered that God isn’t performing miracles in the high volume as claimed. So what!! Let’s give Him the glory for the ones He is doing, renounce the false claims and not worry about the numbers! Maybe leaders feel they would be discredited in the eyes of the revival’s followers and/or the crowds would leave and they would be stuck with an overwhelming debt from the property and buildings they’ve taken on? Maybe the individuals who are attending from all over the earth fear they would lose faith concerning their own healings or ministry/anointing promises if it ALL isn’t true?
Well, maybe there needs to be some humble folks that need to receive that for what it is and what it is not and just chalk it up as a “swing and a miss” on their ability to hear accurately from God. It really is not that big of a job for the grace of God to restore someone that has been deceived. You repent, you let God heal you, you go to the word and find the discernment you were missing and move on in a greater wisdom. Mercy always triumphs over judgement!
Blessings,
Danyael
I’m open to correspond with anyone through email.
ratintheriver@juno.com
Great post Danyael, funny thing came to mind as I was reading it, just like they cant provide any evidence for those ‘resurrected from the dead’ they cant provide evidence of anyone who has died like Ananias and Sapphira due to questioning their ministry!
I’d like them to produce evidence for both cases, those resurrected and those who have died for questioning this revival
Any offers?
r2ks,
I read your post this morning before I left for work, and now I am on my lunch hour. I thought about it all morning and was greived. You are right, some people on these sites are here just to bash Todd and the revival in Lakeland period. There are others here who are skeptical and want proof of the healings and testimonies of people being raised from the dead. Then there are those like me, who have been in the Charismatic movement a long time and are concerned about the Todd promoting angel sitings and asking angels to do things for him (like bring him finances) and the trips he claims to take to the Third Heaven, apparently new age or the extra biblical experiences.
On another note, its apparent that many people believe this healing revival is from God and the Holy Spirit is moving. People are coming to Lakeland from all over the United States and the world to get an impartation to bring back to their countries (and churches). The question is, if its not real, why are so many people coming … and… what is happening in their churches when they take it back? The testimonies point to more outpouring and more revival reaching the whole earth. Most people are finding out about it through the internet and GOD-TV, which is reaching millions of people. So, if its fake, why are so many people deceived? If its real, they are taking it all over the earth.
Its really a wait and see thing but I agree, its unbiblical and wrong for us to say unkind things about Todd, his associates, or his tatooed appearance. I don’t think its wrong to “question” his belief in the supernatural, asking angels to perform certain things, and his extra-heavenly visits.
If you have felt offended by anything I have posted on this blog, please forgive me.
In Christ,
Jan
Jan,
I’ve asked myself similar questions to the one you asked above;
“The question is, if its not real, why are so many people coming … and… what is happening in their churches when they take it back?”
And I believe the Lord has led me to several conclusions. (1) It is agreeable through most denominations and persuasions across the earth, that we may very well be at the beginning of the end times. (2) When scripture is read in context, there is NOWHERE in scripture where there is any kind of an end time revival prophesied for the Gentile church. On the contrary, the scriptures declares quite the opposite for believers during the last days. (3) There is and end time “revival” prophesied for the sons of Jacob, but only AFTER the age of the Gentiles has ended. (4) There IS and end times movement amongst believers that will be fronted by false Christs, false apostles, and false prophets which can be seen as a false revival. And these false leaders WILL operate in great lying signs and wonders, in which even the elect may be deceived through them. (5) And that the modern prophetic movement doctrines are entirely void of all of these above mentioned truths, makes me think that they possibly are that very group of people.
So, the question to me is no longer “how can these things be happening if it isn’t God?” And it now reads “is this God or the devil?”
The scriptures have made it clear to me that the devil will have an incredibly successful counterfeit revival in the end times and that MANY will fall for it. And during the end times, the remnant MUST contend for the faith. And by comparison to those who are (will be) a part of what will be a GREAT falling away, the remnant will be few.
Danyael
I just sent an e-mail to Fox News thanking them for this report and asking them to do a follow up. I am sure that a short note from others would encourage them to look a little deeper into Todd Bentley.
The e-mail link is:
Atlarge@foxnews.com
GF
Thanks clarity, will email them now..
Danyael, you wrote <<<>>>
It is prophesied that there will be a great falling away in the last days, not a great revival. All of this is very sobering and difficult!
Several years ago when Rick Joyner was in Jacksonville, FL, having MorningStar conferences, he spoke about a great civil war that was coming to the body of Christ Christians were going to have to choose sides. I reasoned, if this was true, of course I would be on the side with all the prophetic guys. I thought it was going to be the prophetic movement vs organized denominationalism. Sad to say, now that its beginning to happen, I’m not able to take their side. I’m on the opposite side and I’m really flat out shocked and surprised. I don’t trust the prophetic movement anymore. At one time I was jumping in the river and now I’m cautious to go near it.
Jan
This is what I meant to post above, I don’t know why, but it didn’t post.
Danyael wrote: . (2) When scripture is read in context, there is NOWHERE in scripture where there is any kind of an end time revival prophesied for the Gentile church. On the contrary, the scriptures declares quite the opposite for believers during the last days………..
Ditto Jan…
I still go to the Church that had Rick Joyner there…they are being somewhat cautious but are almost trying to somehow replicate Lakeland, FL, Redding, CA, and yes North Carolina…Rick’s Church. My wife and I have been seeking the Word of God for some of the “questionable” activities that have been witnessed and have never really questioned some things. My family are now encouraging from within before some type of angel revival breaks out.
Please pray…by the way…yes God is mighty to save.
His Love is incredible…His greatest love was His Son Jesus Christ who saved us from the wrath of God.
For God sooooo loved the world, that He gave His One and only Son that whosoever believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
His Love was demonstrated, He came and defeated sin AND death AND hell…why do we keep demanding He come down again to the point we are “telling God what to do”?
Yes, only the Holy Spirit convicts a person of sin and the Father draws all men to them…but we must speak the gospel…whether they are raised from the dead or NOT!
God Bless
Click here:
http://www.christianresearchservice.com/ToddBentley1.htm
Scriptural foundation regarding these visits to the 3rd heaven and visions of Jesus.
Jan & everyone,
You are exactly right on the “civil war” prophesy. It is in fact nothing new, and actually came from Bob Jones. But most leaders in the prophetic movement quote, teach, and even “prophesy” each other’s words and doctrines. It mostly goes unnoticed because it is never challenged. The scripture does teach and prophesy that something like this will occur, just not in the way they perceive it to be because they may be on the deceived side of the “great walling away” having believed a “great lie”.
Jesus warned His apostles prophetically about there own deaths and the motives of their killers in John 16 when He said,
1 “These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.”
That prophesy was fulfilled in the deaths of both Jesus and the apostles. And so it is very possible that it may be true for believers in the end days because Jesus explains this right in the middle of a 3+ chapters long explanation of the ministry of the Holy Spirit that is for all believers’ lives. Not to take an out of context and extra revelatory view on it that would more model the teaching method of the modern prophetic movement that would say “it was true for them, so it is true for us”. But if we by chance come into a time in the future where the church is divided and has something like a “civil war” and one side is putting those to death on the other side because they think they are doing God service, we need to remember passages like this. And those who “prophesied” this civil war will feel very justified in their actions.
Sound too far fetched? Give it a few of years and wait till the supporters of the Codex Vaticanus & Codex Sinaiticus manuscripts (which have been used for all modern translations) push to add the books of “Shepherd of Hermes” and the “Gospel of Barnabus” to the Bible. Which were rejected initially, but have been part of those manuscripts since their discovery. They will appear to be this “new and great discovery” and will be added to the Bible claiming to “complete” the cannon of scripture.
The danger with that is the book of Revelations will be removed and replaced by these books. And if that isn’t bad enough (knowing the warning in Rev.22:19) these books have commands for believers to:
(1) Take “the name” of the beast.
(2) Give up to the beast.
(3) Form a One-World Government.
(4) Kill those not receiving his “name.” (thinking they do God service?)
(5 )Worship female virgins. (see the catholic tie in?)
(6) Receive another spirit.
(7) Seek power.
(8) Avoid marriage and permit fornication.
(9) Abstain from fasting. (this is already evidenced in some of the newer translations in Mark 9:29 where Jesus said concerning a demon the disciples couldn’t cast out, “this type only comes out by much prayer and fasting. Modern translations only read “by much prayer” the ” and fasting” has been omitted)
See how it could tie in during the end times for believers from many different back rounds and religions would accept a Bible like that and think it is the word of God?
In addition, all of this would fall into line with what Revelations says will be occurring in the end times and warns us against. But if this new Bible is the only one that may even be lawful in those days for believers to posses (possibly even only a New Testament), how could anyone in those times ever discern the truth about what would be occurring in the world around them?
And believe me, this is the present plan of the elitist of the world as they march towards their “New World Order”, to have a one world religion (as prophesied). People will still be able to worship a “uniformally accepted Jesus” and posses a “uniformally accepted Bible” in this one world religion. But it WILL present a different Jesus and a different gospel. It will be an anti Christ, but presented as the real Christ and nearly the whole world, including Israel, will buy into it. Scripture tells us these things WILL occur.
The modern prophetic movement is full of doctrines and practices that will eventually play right into this. Their self proclaimed apostles and prophets are ALL pushing towards this one unified church that they plan to reign over with super natural powers as super apostles and super prophets that will not be able to be killed, and have supernatural health etc. (more Bob Jones-KC Prophets- Manifested Sons etc. theology). And the current outpouring is the beginning of that move according to THEM. And that is THEIR words, we’ve all heard it.
Don’t get me wrong, even in spite of the mess down in Lakeland and other places and corrupt versions of the Bible being used to teach doctrine, we can’t get to that level of deception right from here. Many other things must occur on both the world government scope and within the church before significant changes like that can actually begin to happen. But I personally do believe it will be in our lifetime and probably happen a lot quicker than we dare to think it can. But what HAS already happened is that some big steps have been taken in that direction. And it is the long term conditioning for those changes is what we are currently experiencing.
And while the internet and libraries are not yet under governmental regulation (which is already being pushed), we need to do our research now to prepare us for the end times! One of the most important things we can do in preparation for that hour is, making sure that we are studying the most trustworthy and accurate translation of the Bible and get the ones that are not, off of our shelves. And to equip our personal libraries with good resources that will help us study the original languages accurately, Biblical encyclopedias, etc. The days may be getting close to when we can no longer purchase such things or do research without regulated intervention.
Is anyone scared yet? I think we should be to some degree, but only with the confidence that the Lord will take of us as we put His righteousness and His kingdom first in our lives.
And for those who have never studied where your favorite version(s) of the Bible has come from, I STRONGLY suggest that now is the time to do it. Research “who” the translators were and “how” they translated it. Research “what” manuscripts they translated from and then research “where” those manuscripts came from and “who” put them together. But I warn you ahead of time, be prepared to possibly have your feelings hurt. Because when you do the research you will very easily see where the word of God has been tampered with by translators and may find your favorite translation(s) right there on the top of the list. I’ve never met anyone yet who dared take this journey (myself included) he didn’t get really p.o.’d when faced with the evidences they uncovered.
Below is a link to a series of videos on youtube where Gail Riplinger goes into this subject in GREAT detail. She has critics and those who don’t agree with her, but I do because 100% of the research I did completely on my own about this is all sited in her research. She spent six solid years just researching her initial publication and she knows her stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4tVIhCM5Yk
Blessings,
Danyael
The civil war thing is a demonstration of how pathetic Bob Jones messages are. I think Rick Joyner let the mask slip when he said that through their ministry there is going to be
“an entirely new definition of Christianity”
As if somehow Jesus failed when he said “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail”
Jones, Bickle and Joyner realy believe the church failed and need them to rebuild it. Yuk! They certainly deify themselves while bringing Jesus down.
As for Gayle riplinger, I certainly wouldnt trust her as an historian or a manuscript scholar. But thats another story..
God bless
Justin Peters (http://www.justinpeters.org) was on Way of the Master Radio with Todd Friel on this:
A pastor pronounced “healed” by Todd Bentley Dies 8 Days Later.-Pastor Justin Peters contacted 7 people who went up on stage and said they felt the power of God go through them, but Todd Bentley proclaimed them healed, and none of the 7 …
filesfromtoni – http://filesfromtoni.blogspot.com/
Danyael,
Thanks for sharing the You Tube videos. I watched several of them last night and it was very interesting. I do think Gayle Ripplinger found some gross errors in the modern translations. I have heard the NIV was not accurate and lots of churches refuse to use it as a reference when preaching, but I never heard that about the New King James. I thought that one was very similar to the King James.
I think we can get over balanced about any issue regarding what is coming on the earth and we shouldn’t be in fear or start hording up accurate Bibles. We will always have the Holy Spirit who is there to guide us into all truth. God still speaks to us individually and we know His voice. I think we need to be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might and trust in him with all our hearts and not lean to our own understanding. He will never leave us or forsake us.
Pete: I don’t necessarily think Mike Bickle has the attitudes described above, unless he’s drastically changed. I have been to IHOP 3 times and to Kansas City even before IHOP, when Bickle was pastor of Metro Christian Fellowship and had the Passion for Jesus conferences. He always claimed to live a fasted livestyle as an intercessor and the 24/7 prayer furnance was birhed in his heart long before it became a reality. His goal was to equip forerunners and help people start their own IHOPs. He felt the Lord was leading him to facilitate prayer and worship that never stopped but continued 24/7 until his return. Mike Bickle came to here where I live to help us when we started an IHOP.
God Bless,
Jan
Jan thanks for sharing that, I really dont want to be misrepresenting Mike but as a Kansas City Prophet I would believe that Mike endorsed the civil war prophecies of Joyner, Jones and Cain.
Infact after the scandel of Bob jones sexual antics became known, Mike Bickle can be heard sympathising with the victims but still insisting that the ‘anointing’ on B Jones was still “greater than ever”
(Mike Bickle “public disciplining of Bob Jones’ 1990 audio tape).
Well it was under this anointing that the God gave Bob the ‘civil war’ Vision, That Joyner went on say would redifine christianity.
There’s a great book that documents all of this called ‘The counterfiet revival’ by Hank Hanagraaff.
P.S Can I just add that Gail Riplinger should be approached with caution. I would highly recommend the book “The King James Controversy” By James white, not only does this book offer a scholarly insight into how we get our Bible but also lays the Gail Riplinger case wide open.
Anyway, this is another subject and one I approached with interest back in the mid 90s when the KJ Only things was at its peak.
Pete,
I know somewhat about the Kansas City prophets, and from what I remember from hearing back in the 90s, is Mike Bickle stopped participating with them and saw them in gross error. Since it was in his church (I think it was the Metro Christian Vineyard at that time), it fell apart and the all went their separate ways. I have never heard anything different. I’m not trying to undermine what you posted, but if this is just your observation or from a gut feeling and not from any concrete facts, maybe you should email Mike Bickle or his ministry and find out where he stands on this.
I have never put Mike Bickle and Rick Joyner together as good friends but I really don’t know if they are or not. I’ve never heard either of them mention one another and their ministries are very different from each other. I have always gravitated towards Mike Bickle’s teaching and felt Rick Joyner was too radical.
God Bless,
Jan
Hi Jan
Again thanks for the information, I am interested in finding out if Mike Bickle did repent from the KCP, or did a full expose on them? I hope he did.
I am remembering him from back in the mid 90s when he was very much into the KCPs, so my info may very well be out of date (sounds like it is).
Did he write anything exposing them or why he renounced them?
I could be speaking out of turn (probably am), but I was under the distinct impression that Mike Bickle was part and parcel of the KCP. And I’ve done quite a lot of reading about the whole movement. I think I would have by now stumbled upon some sort of “retraction letter” if such a thing were to exist (if Bickle really had officially separated himself from the rest of those folks).
But again – I don’t know for sure. It’s all quite confusing. Perhaps this distancing was more subtle, something that he’s avoided proclaiming publicly so as not to offend his former cohorts?
Hi CHarismania, did a little surfing and could only find this:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b56.html
Because Mike is so prolific in writing it would be great if he released a good statement or book even . Many high ranking people who have left false movements have written books to demonstrate their repentance and to reach the people whom they had previousely decieved. I think we owe it to the crowds to warn them this way if we have been in such major positions and have decieved many. A lot of people do not know he is no longer associated with this current ‘in crowd’. I had no idea, though I am pleased to hear it.
Like you said, perhaps he doesnt want to offend his cohorts. I gues his small article in Charisma mag was a step in the right direction. I’ll certainly no longer make reference to him when discussing the KCPs, even though he was quite instrumental in building them up.
Here’s a comment I posted on another blog about IHOP/Bickle:
I wish to point out that SadParent’s experience of being shunned is not unique. Last year I met an individual who was caught up in Bickle’s teachings and the ‘modern prophetic.’ When I began to question some of her beliefs she backed off a bit. When I showed her scripture about end-times apostasy, the NT verses warning of false prophets/teachers and specific evidence of scripture twisting of one of those in the modern prophetic, she promptly insisted I cease ALL communication with her.
At the time we were both going to the same class one day a week. I nearly stopped going as she had been going to the class longer than I had. However, I believe the Holy Spirit led me to continue. I saw her a few times at the class and she TOTALLY avoided me. She eventually quit going. Putting SadParent’s experience with my own (and one other, I can’t find the source just now) points to a pattern of behavior that is very cult-like.
The duplicitous nature of IHOP is evidenced in their “Affirmations and Denials related to past controversies” page. The first question one must ask is why would there be a need for such a disclaimer if there wasn’t some real controversy there to begin with? Here’s the link:
http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000010501
Starting with Joel’s Army:
“WE AFFIRM that the army in Joel 2:1–11 was an ungodly Babylonian army that destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. We believe that this passage has a double fulfillment as it points to the Antichrist’s army that will attack Israel at the end of the age. We affirm that Joel was prophesying of the lifestyle of godly believers in Joel 2:12–17.
WE DENY Joel 2:1–11 describes the end-time church.
Explanation: The term “Joel’s Army” has been used to signify the people who walk out the principles of prayer with fasting as taught in Joel 2:12–17. The term has been used much like “Joseph Company”, “Gideon Band” or “David Company” to signify the people who embraced the godly qualities that Joel taught about prayer, fasting and wholehearted obedience. Paul Cain had a prophetic word about a “Joel’s Army in training,” referring to a group of people who would give themselves to prayer and fasting according to Joel 2:12–17. When used like this, “Joel’s Army” does not refer specifically to the destroying army mentioned in Joel 2:1–11, but to people who walk out the Joel 2:12–17 lifestyle. The misunderstanding comes from giving the title “Joel’s Army” to both the destroying army (Joel 2:1–11) and the group of people who give themselves to fasting and prayer (Joel 2:12–17).
I would have to ask: Why have so many names for a prayer and fasting movement? It only leads to confusion. And, why the term ‘Joel’s Army’ since this sounds militaristic? Frankly, Mike Bickle knew full well what the real meaning of Joel’s Army was at the time this term was adopted. He knew all about Latter Rain doctrine as many of his associates were actively involved in these heresies. See here:
http://www.dtl.org/shield/latter-rain-1.htm
Bickle was initially part of Kansas City Fellowship in KC; and, Bob Jones and Paul Cain provided “foundational revelation.” Never mind that these guys were wrong many times on their prophecies, their lies exposing them as false prophets. Bickle asserts that NT foretelling prophecy can be less than 100% accurate because “we’re under Grace,” the New Covenant. The thing is I cannot find biblical justification for that. Of course, the less than 100% accuracy on prophesy also came from a vision from Bob Jones; so, how can we argue with that (note: sarcasm).
And one other comment:
Continuing on with the link to IHOP’s “Affirmation and Denials…” page:
Taking a close look at “The Tabernacle of David” we see Bickle quoting a number of scriptures:
“WE AFFIRM the Holy Spirit is orchestrating a global worship and prayer movement that will operate in great authority (Luke 18:7–8; Matthew 21:13; Revelation 5:8, 8:3–5, 22:17; Isaiah 62:6–7; Joel 2:12–17 and 32). This prayer movement will operate in the spirit of the Tabernacle of David.”
None of these scriptures point to a “global worship and prayer movement” as Bickle’s premise asserts. The Luke and Matthew passages speak of prayer in a general sense, the Joel scripture is about fasting and prayer following repentance of the people after their land was destroyed by an army of locusts. The first two Revelation passages refer to a heavenly events to earthly prayers; but, nothing about a 24 hour ‘movement.’ The Revelation 22:17 says nothing about prayer whatsoever. The Isaiah passage speaks of those who “will never be silent day or night” but, again this says nothing about a ‘global prayer movement that will operate in great authority.’
“WE DENY the restoration of the tabernacle of David is the same as the end-time prayer movement.”
Well, this statement is a direct contradiction to an article by Bickle in 2000 in Charisma magazine.
http://www.davidic24-7.com/tabofdavid.html
Here’s one quote:
I believe God will fully restore the tabernacle of David–which is the very embodiment of intercessory worship before the beauty, holiness and glory of God–in the generation in which the Lord returns (see Acts 15:16-17). I believe it will be the means of releasing the fullness of salvation and revival for all the nations. Through this model of intercessory worship, the Great Commission will be fulfilled so that every tribe, tongue and nation will be present on the last day (see Rev. 5:9; 7: 9-10; 14:6; 15:4; Matt. 24:14). [emphasis mine]
Going back to the IHOP website:
“Though Amos 9:11 is not prophesying primarily about 24/7 intercessory worship, it will be a foundational reality in the release of Jesus’ worldwide rule over the nations. The prophetic word given to Mike Bickle in May 1983 was that “God would release 24 hour-a-day prayer in the spirit of the Tabernacle of David.” In other words, it would involve prophetic singers and musicians. Worship and intercession is not in itself the actual restoration of David’s tabernacle!”
Once again, there are more contradictions.
Going back the other link, here’s the article following Bickle’s words at the top. It’s David Orton’s “The Restoration of David’s Tabernacle…What is it?”
Every outpouring of the Spirit signals a transition from an old order to the new. And it usually creates conflict.
In obedience to a vision, Peter’s ground-breaking visit to Cornelius shook the status quo, taking the gospel and the outpouring of the Spirit beyond its original Jewish confines. But some Judaizers demanded that the new Gentile believers submit to circumcision, and, therefore, to ritual law for salvation. In effect they were saying, “The old way of doing it is God’s way!” How was this “new thing” (Isa 43:19) to be understood? It was totally outside their frame of reference, it flew in the face of religious protocol – in fact, from where they sat, you could not come to God outside of their revelation. To put it colloquially, it was either their way or the highway!
To resolve the issue the apostles and elders gathered in Jerusalem. After hearing Peter’s testimony of the outpouring of the Spirit on the Gentiles, and after much heated debate, James stood up, resolving the problem by reading from the prophet Amos:
“The words of the prophets are in agreement with this (ie with Peter’s experience of the Gentile outpouring), as it is written, “After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name…!” (Acts 15:15-17 NIV).
James interpreted the new thing that God was doing (the outpouring of the Spirit on the Gentiles) as the restoration of David’s tabernacle.
But what does the restoration of David’s tabernacle actually mean?
Transition to a new order – a time for change! [emphasis mine]
Note that Acts 15:15-17 is a reference to Amos 9:11. Bickle clarifies that the Amos passage DOES NOT refer to a restoration of the Tabernacle of David on the IHOP website; but, here it is out of context:
God is bringing back the plumbline of worship “as it used to be” (Amos 9:11; from the passage quoted by James in Acts 15). Worship not according to our traditional patterns or even our contemporary culture, but according to the Tabernacle of David.
Now, I understand this is an older article; but, has he publicly corrected his scriptural error? No. One is left not knowing what to believe about Mike Bickle.
Lee, I don’t want to sound unkind, but you can pick apart any ministry to the bones and find things wrong with it. As long as there are humans in a church therewill not be a perfect church.
I believe Mike Bickle is a man of God, seeking the truth, a prayer warrior and intercessor. I don’t think he would dwell in the past i.e. the Kansas City prophets. I’m sure he is way past all that garbage and moving on with the work God has given him to do. Let’s look at today, not a decade ago. It happened and you can’t retract it or take it back. Each one of us has to stand before God and give an account of OUR OWN life, so why should we, the created beings hold other’s accountable for the sins of the past that God has forgiven them for?
That’s all I want to say. You can research every single person in ministry and find something to nail that person with, even Billy Graham. Soon there won’t be any credible Christian ministers left on the face of the earth.
Its true, Christians tend to shoot their wounded instead of walking in love. Love covers a multitude of sins.
Like I said, I’m not trying to be ugly or anything, but I think some people are getting into heresy hunting. AND…. what makes them so wrong and YOU so right? They are the ones who are out on the fore front, stepping out by faith and doing things they believe God is commissioning them to do. They are the ones the devil tries to tear down with critics and gossip.
Blessings,
Jan
Jan,
While I’m sorry you are offended, I’m not sorry for posting the truth. The fact remains that Mike Bickle took a multitude of scriptures out of context to try to prove his own point based on a ‘prophetic word given to [him] in May of 1983;’ and, he continues to do this same thing. What Bickle should have done was tested this prophesy in light of scripture. Instead, he, like other modern false prophets, chose to make this prophesy fit into scripture by twisting original contexts.
Proper interpretation of scripture is by exegesis; i.e., reading the text in its full context and drawing the meaning out. The opposite of exegesis is eisegesis which does the reverse; i.e., just what Bickle did regarding the Tabernacle of David. All of us are probably guilty of eisegesis at times. For example, someone may believe that God wants us to be happy. This individual may take scripture which speaks of ‘joy’ and use these to back up their initial claim that God wants us to be happy. The reality is that God does not promise happiness. In fact, He promises trials and tribulations.
This doesn’t mean to say that Mike Bickle is not a nice guy (I’ve never met him) or that he doesn’t have a big heart. He’s probably a nicer guy than I. And, I’ve never said or intimated that I’m some biblical scholar. But, the fact is that Bickle HAS had many false teachings over the years; and, unless, he’s publicly corrected these public teachings (or the ones strictly within IHOP that aren’t as public), then he’s doing all a disservice and leading his students into error.
It all comes down to this: do you believe the Bible to be the infallible, inerrant Word of God [Jesus is the Word made flesh (John 1:1-18)]? If you do — and I’m assuming you do — then it should offend you when someone misquotes scripture. Now, I understand that no one has perfect theology and all will make mistakes — including me — however when one does this over and over it is inexcusable. Especially a well-known teacher.
From what I’ve heard, Bickle almost, if not always, states that you should check his teachings against scripture. Well, I’ve seen accounts on the internet of individuals within IHOP who did question some of the teachings and these people were labeled as having ‘religious’ or ‘critical’ spirits. They were subsequently booted out of IHOP.
So, I merely did what Bickle himself asks of his students and now you criticize me for stating the truth. Jan, just like you said, we all answer to God and not man.
<…so why should we, the created beings hold other’s accountable for the sins of the past that God has forgiven them for?
Assuming Bickle repented for these things (You or I really have no idea), then why hasn’t he publicly corrected these false teachings? He has tried to sweep them under the carpet, so to speak, rather than correct them.
I believe Mike Bickle is a man of God, seeking the truth, a prayer warrior and intercessor. I don’t think he would dwell in the past i.e. the Kansas City prophets. I’m sure he is way past all that garbage and moving on with the work God has given him to do.
You are stating a belief about Bickle; but, how do you know for sure? You can’t truly know his heart; and, I understand, you can’t know mine.
Charles Stanley is one minister/teacher who I believe is really straight up when I measure his teachings against the Word of God. I have a number of his books; and, again, I find his teachings biblically-based. However, he teaches tithing which is NOT true for Christians as that’s part of the Mosaic Law that Christ fulfilled on the cross. I can’t say why he does this; but, God knows the reason why. So, while I really like Charles Stanley, I do not follow him — a mere man. I follow Jesus as revealed in His Word.
Let God [through His Word] be true and every man a liar [Romans 3:4].
I would be very happy if there were no big names in Christian circles, then we could lead everyone back to only exalting the name above all names.
Jan thanks for the info on MB, that was interesting to discover.
Pete,
I agree with your statement. Many in ‘leadership’ or the ‘big names in Christian circles’ have forgotten about servant leadership.
Hi Lee, I always think of the scripture in Corinthians where the Apostle Paul spoke about himself and Apolos, admonishing listeners that at the end of the day we shouldnt exalt men, one plants one waters but God makes the seed grow, neither man nor angel. Its such an humble attitude and one we appear to be overlooking in this day and age of super apostles.
I have one big question for Todd Bentley: where are the media??? He is talking about the resurrections and miracles and that the media, the press, would come… But I can’t find anything on CNN for example. One evening Bentley said: “we have a phonecall from CNN!” But the last weeks I checked and found nothing. If it is as big as Bentley suggests, why isn’t the news on CNN, BBC etc.? And where are the resurrected people? I haven’t seen them on stage in Lakeland…
When Jesus healed someone, that person was healed totally! He used tot send some to the priest to check, but it were clear healings. So I’m waiting for proof… But don’t trust your eyes to much… trust Jesus!
Janet,
The 16th one was onstage. The thing is, she was supposedly raised from the dead on April 2 — the first day of Bentley in Lakeland. Read this contradictory story here:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/16th-resurrection-the-girl-with-more-than-one-face/
Thanks Lee. I’m gonna look at it. By the way, I’m from the Netherlands and my question is only one of the many questions I have about this whole outpouring… I’ve seen much of the events on God-tv, but I’m think that something is very wrong. It looks like a mixture of spirits…
Janet,
At BEST, it’s a mixture. That doesn’t mean there aren’t well meaning Holy Spirit indwelled Christians in attendance who just aren’t aware of Bentley’s roots to false prophets (and he himself is one), Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army/etc. abberant doctrine. However, a little leaven (yeast) leavens the whole.
You have to admit that they are spreading the gospel all over the world through God TV and the internet. How many of us have the resources to do something like that? They are preaching Jesus and giving glory to God.
Maybe this really is the Holy Spirit moving in spite of Todd Bentley’s bizzare background and beliefs. Time will tell and we do need to keep an open mind.
(I go back and forth because there is too many good things happening with this revival that outweigh the negative).
Um, the Gospel as defined in the Bible is:
That Christ died for our sins,
that He was buried,
and that He was raised from the dead. (1 Cor 15:3,4)
I’ve listened to many nights of the FL outpouring and have NEVER heard the Gospel preached. As a teacher for Christ, one should “know nothing but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified (1 Cor 2:2)” and “preach Christ crucified (1 Cor 1:23)”.
Isn’t that one test for true vs. false preaching & teaching? God Bless everyone, and thanks Watchman for observing the gates of the sheepfold to keep the enemy at bay. -Brenda
Brenda,
You are right. Todd is preaching another jesus and another gospel.
The Holy Sprit:
1) guides into all Truth
2) points to Jesus (the Gospel) and NEVER glorifies Himself
3) convicts of sin leading to repentance.
The Holy Spirit is not an ‘it’ or a ‘force.’ He is not to be manipulated. As part of the Triune Godhead, He is to be reverentially feared. I don’t see any of this in Lakeland from the relatively little that I’ve personally seen. However, there are numerous accounts that all say this same thing.
Given the foundation of Lakeland, none of this should be surprising.
I agree with Brenda. I hear the word ‘gospel’ sometimes in Lakeland, but which gospel? Paul and Peter preached in Acts the gospel of Jesus who died for our sins at the cross so we can recieve forgiveness and everlasting life if we repent and believe in Jesus Christ. So we could be saved. Saved from an eternity without God, an eternity in hell. And that is something I haven’t heard so clearly yet from Bentley. I saw one altarcall, but it was again about the Jesus you need for your needs and the glory. But why do we need Jesus? To be saved from hell, saved from a life without God. In Lakeland it is to much about the ‘glory’, about signs and wonders… less about salvation. Why has there not have been one meeting yet where they only bring the true gospel and no miracles? I think that not many people would come… When Jesus started to preach His heavy message about the suffering and the cross, many people left Him. He even asked His disciples if they wanted to leave too… But Peter said: ‘Where else should we go? You are the only One who speaks words of life…’
And I think the problem is that the believers follow the miracles instead of how it should be: miracles follow the believers…
I dont believe that Godtv is proclaiming the true Gospel, it does occasionally air a program where the Gospel is presented but blink and you’ll miss it.
I wached the premiere of the Gdtv in England, it originally aired as ‘The God channel” and was anything but Christian. In the first week, Ken Copeland presented his born again rich jesus, Benny presented his ‘anointing’ and Creflo dollar and Morris Cerullo presented whatever they could to bring in the money. In the meantime John Avanzini, Jesse Duplantis and Gloria Copeland laughed all the way to the bank.
and, while it doesnt get any worse than this, wendy and Rorey then introduced us all to the magnificant Peter Popoff…. :[
I was gutted but I tuned in every day for the 1st few months hoping to see some good teachers on there. Well I think I remember hearing one or two who appeared to be ok only to find out that they had some real strange doctrines later on.
Rodney howard browne was given maximum airtime as soon as he hit the headlines. Rick joyner and the prophets were on almost every day. We went from hearing nothing but how to obey and follow Christ crucified and Risen to hearing nothing but how to dip into the wealth and electric power of Christ the millionaire and hsi wealthy angels.
It was the very first channel in the UK that proffessed to be Christian, we waited with baited breath to see who was going to be on and we got nothing but hype and a false jesus. I do not believe the ‘God Channel’ is presenting the gospel to the world. It is a false gospel.
Dear Everyone:
God is God. The Lord will manifest healings through ANYONE who believes and follows the Name of Jesus because that’s what the Lord said: IN MY NAME they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. So we need to stop running after people whom God uses to recover the sick and allow God to use us where we are.
We make healing so UNcommon that people will run anywhere to get help. If this was a common blessing then there would be no chance of a strange fire consuming people’s lives.
Our Church branch’s healing services center around footwashing, Holy Communion and confession of any unforgiveness we might have. The healings follow naturally after that.
The healings we have had were “proven” by a simple x ray. They show trauma repaired or just not there any more. As the pastor/bishop I have taught the people to expect and thank God for such healings when they feel they have happened and to go to the doctor and have them verified. That’s only common sense!
I say again that if we would only just concentrate on pleasing God, forgiving others, being merciful and the old ways of the Faith we would save ourselves a lot of grief.
I am the oldest person in our church and we don’t have problems with getting young people to our church based upon reasonable music, strict teachings of the Faith and lots and lots of emphasis on forgiveness in Christ.
Why can’t Todd stick to that?
Bishop T+
Nice post Bishop T
We are all here exposing false prophets and carefully examining what we are hearing. We are not questioning Gods ability to heal, its great that your church is using Gods word as its guide. Nice to hear from you.
I just saw on Youtube a video where someone is asking pastors and leaders from churches who have been to Lakeland if ‘they had seen antything unscriptual’. All the pastors said it was truly biblical…. But I heard people (leaders) who have been there and had their doubts. And I think the man who made the video asked the wrong question. He should have asked this: ‘Did you HEAR anything unscriptual’. I have seen about 25 meetings and listened to what was told on stage by Todd Bentley, David Tomberline or Ryan Wyatt… and there were really unscriptual things!
Jim wrote: “any Christian who actually BELIEVES the Bible should really be asking the question ;
“Why are these miracles not being seen in my church?”.
Because we don’t have pastors with tattoos and pierced noses and lips who are willing to beat up on people. Funny, that.
Actually I see miracles every day. Every breath is a miracle. “consider the lilies of the field” and the birds of the air? Those are miracles.
I guess the everyday provision of God for daily life and for his miraculous raising people from spiritual death and granting them repentance unto salvation isn’t good enough for these people who, as Jesus rebuked in the Gospels “a wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign.”
Gotta have a ‘god’ who will make my life more comfortable yup.
Hi Pete! Hi everyone! So… this is where all of you are. … I have been doing some searching on T.B. and have discovered some things that are CLEARLY unbiblical and downright “new age.” (Besides what we ALREADY know.)…. I’m not sure if any of you have heard about his teachings on his style of prayer, but they are clearly leading people into extremely dangerous practices. …Type in your “search” the following…”The Glory Cloud Of Revelation And Prophetic Mantles,” and click on both Part 1 and Part 2 and let me know what you think. Also, type in “The False Revival (comparison) ” and watch the manifestations that are taking place in these so-called “revivals” and see how they compare to the practices of meditation and arousing the serpent power within, and we all know who the serpent represents. …I can almost hear Satan and his demons laughing, as I watch clips of people experiencing “holy laughter” because they feel as if they have succeeded in leading some believers away from their first love, Jesus, …all because some of us want an “experience” instead of experiencing God in His presence as we pour out our hearts to Him in prayer, and hear Him speaking to us through His Word. Have we forgotten that God desires us to turn to HIM and how He warns us of the spiritual battle that rages against us? ….. 1 Peter 5:6-9 says…”Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that He may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on Him because He cares for you. Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith…” We are definitely living in the end times… and the world is being prepared for the anti-christ. …………..Hi again, Pete. I’m sorry to hear you don’t have good biblical teaching on t.v. where you live, but, then again, I don’t think there are very many preachers on t.v. who preach the pure Word of God no matter WHAT part of the world we live in. Thankfully you seem like a strong Christian, and you will continue to stand strong because the foundation of your life is built upon the Rock. …Matthew 7:24-27 …(I will respond to your last post on “Todd and Believing in the Angel” in a few days) God bless you, Pete and everyone.