As I’ve said before, many times, the journey out of Charismania seems to take longer than one would imagine. We’ve been gone from Living Word Church (a pseudonym, as are all other names in this post) for a year and a half, and yet I still keep coming to new realizations about things we experienced there. I’ll be going along, thinking that I am SO OVER Living Word, when suddenly I’ll remember something and be hit by a new understanding, a new interpretation, of it.
Like yesterday. For some reason, I suddenly remembered something that Pastor Smith would often say when talking about people who left Living Word.
(I’m going to interrupt myself before I even really get rolling, so that I can point out how odd it seems, in retrospect, that a pastor of a fairly large congregation – around 1,000 in attendance on a Sunday – would EVER comment from the pulpit about people who leave. But Smith did this on many occasions. He’d often joke about the “revolving door” of the church…and the evil vipers who would spread vicious lies about him…and sometimes he’d say, “If you don’t like it, LEAVE!”
But that would be fodder for another post.)
Anyway…back to what I remembered yesterday…
On many occasions, when Pastor Smith would go on these rants about people who left Living Word, he’d do so in a way that really couldn’t be called a “rant.” He’d use a very reasonable, borderline patronizing tone of voice, like he was a helpful preschool teacher explaining the obvious. And he’d say, “You know, I’ve seen so many families, they’re plugged in to this great church. Their kids are doing well. Their finances are doing well. Their marriage is great. But then they leave. And somehow, after that, their kids start having problems. Their finances get messed up. And their marriages fall apart…”
During that last bit, Smith would shrug dramatically at us and then, still in a very calm, reasonable, preschool teacher sort of voice, finish up with something to the effect of, “Now, I’m not sayin’ ANYTHING. But you can do the math!”
I got to thinking about this yesterday. The clear implication of Pastor Smith’s frequent mentions of people who leave, and how their lives basically fall apart after they do, was that attendance at Living Word Church was the thing that had helped these people remain successful in their finances and family life. Leaving Living Word, on the other hand, meant that you’d lose this magical touch on your life. You’d lose money, you’d lose your kids, you’d lose your marriage.
Something hit me yesterday about this. First of all, I need to say that Pastor Smith’s insinuations APPEARED to have some truth to them. We all knew folks who’d left Living Word, and several of them did get divorced after they left. Many of them did suffer through financial crack-ups. Many of them did have problems with their kids.
I think this is why a bunch of fairly educated, intelligent people could sit there and listen to Pastor Smith say these things and not get upset and walk out – because there SEEMED to be a bit of truth to what he was saying. It SEEMED like Living Word Church WAS good for a family’s success.
But…looking at it another way…
It’s fully possible that leaving Living Word Church DID lead to all sorts of problems for people. But NOT because they’d left Living Word’s protective “anointing.” Rather, people had problems after they left Living Word because of the natural implications of what it means to have been under the sway of a manipulative and abusive ministry!
Financially, people at Living Word strained themselves to give sacrificially. While I’ll never stop believing in the principle of honoring God first with one’s money, the truth of the matter is that Pastor Smith hammered away at the subject of giving, sometimes even taking up multiple collections in a single church service, to the point where many of the people I knew were jeopardizing their financial health to “sow seed” far above and beyond their tithe. Many people enjoyed the special attention they got from Pastor Smith when they did this, too. And a lot of us bought into the idea that we were essentially “investing” when we gave, since we were promised a “hundredfold harvest” from our giving.
So it’s far more likely that those who left suffered financial setbacks BECAUSE of financially harmful decisions they’d made while still attending Living Word.
Likewise Smith’s whole observation about marriages that broke up.
Discovering that you’ve been deceived and manipulated can put major strain on a marriage. Many people exit Charismania with little sense of what’s real and what’s fake about their Christianity. This can prompt a major life crisis. And husbands and wives often handle this crisis differently. Perhaps one spouse spends all his time reading and researching doctrine, while the other one grows apathetic about all things Christian. Losing one’s faith in the “Word of Faith” message is akin to losing a loved one. When you discover that it’s NOT necessarily true that you’ll always be victorious in precisely the way you declare victory…when you discover that miraculous healing is NOT necessarily “always God’s will” for every situation…when you discover that the “hundredfold harvest” is essentially a myth, a con, promoted by unscrupulous “men of Gawd” so that they can line their own pockets and pursue their own luxurious lifestyles even as they themselves do not “sow” all THEY have into OTHER ministries because they KNOW that they won’t receive a “hundredfold return”…
Well, these discoveries are like little deaths. At least they were for us. And as with any death, any loss, nothing will ever quite be the same again. There’s grief. There’s pain. There’s a keen sense of disappointment. And just as the grieving process over an actual physical death can take its toll on a marriage, so can this type of death, the death of one’s belief in the sort of “fairy tale God” taught and promoted at Charismaniac churches.
So yesterday, I suddenly realized that when Pastor Smith made mention of the way people’s lives seem to fall apart after they left Living Word Church, he was – as was so often the case – trying to manipulate his people. He was trying to control them through fear, by planting the idea in their minds that they somehow needed Living Word Church in order to hold their lives together.
And he was so often successful in his quest, as we all sat there and remembered the folks we knew who’d had their lives go south after leaving.
Yet – as was also often the case – Pastor Smith was only telling part of the story. He neglected to mention that the wrecked finances, the broken marriages, the rebellious kids, were far more likely the result of what happens when people have to pick through the reality of deception – deception at the hands of men like Pastor Smith, who promote a false gospel for financial gain.
Outstanding post. We have been telling people for the past 12 months that their problems were not due to the fact that they had left our former church, but were instead a result of having been there. It truly is a grieving process that does put a strain on every aspect of your life. But that process is worth the freedom that you find. Thank you for such an insightful perspective which is, again, a carbon copy of our experience.
Welcome back!
Amazing post. I saw firsthand what the control and manipulation did to marriages and finances. It’s absolutely true that the wreckage left in the wake of these abusive pastors is their own doing, not the result of ‘leaving the covering’.
Hi, Clarity and “D” -
Thanks for stopping by. We really enjoy your blogs. I always look forward to when you guys update. I’m going to try and swing by your blogs later on and see what’s new.
About this post -
I just wonder if the pastors KNOW what they’re doing. A part of me can’t fathom that they do. But then a part of me sadly thinks that they simply MUST know. What do you guys think?
This is a great post. Once again, I am amazed at the similarities between our former churches. My former church also called people who left crazy, evil, demonic, wolves, snakes, clowns, goats – you name it. These were all good people – staff members, board members, head ushers, children’s workers, and very respectable business men and women, but when they left they turned into all these bad things overnight. The pastor’s family felt comfortable enough to leave their own children with these people, and yet, all of a sudden, when they leave they are now evil.
My former church also used the same fear tactics as yours when talking about what would happen if you left. They even went as far as to say that some of the people who left would die. Can you imagine that? We had people who wanted to leave, but their children were afraid they would die.
They said that people’s lives would fall apart if they left, but I noticed that the things they said would happen were already happening inside the church. People were getting divorces, dying, and having major financial problems. Oh, but their church leaders explanations were that those people were “not in faith.”
I totally agree with what you said. Many of the people who get out of the control go in the opposite direction. Instead of running to God they run away from Him. They have been given the impression by these controlling, harsh pastors that God is the same way they are. They think, “If God is like them, then I don’t want anything to do with Him.” Of course, God is nothing like them. He is love and He would never treat anyone the way these “pastors” have.
We have been out of our controlling, manipulative church 4 months and it has been like an emotional roller coaster. The things these types of churches have put people through are unbelievable. It sounds like our former pastors were using the same manual that taught them how to mistreat, control, and manipulate people.
Thanks for the post. I was really missing your writings and I am glad you added a new post. You express things in a way that I could have written it myself. I am going to add a link to this post on my blog
In response to your comment about whether these ministers know what they are doing or not, I have wondered these same things. It is hard to fathom the fact that they might actually know what they are doing. I think that the dicietfullness of riches has gotten in and completely choked out the true word of God in their lives. They pull scriptures out of context and string them together to create their own doctrine. These are not pastors, they are con men.
Here are some excellent websites to check out about Todd Bentley’s exposure
http://newswithviews.com/West/marsha73.htm
http://btelife.blogspot.com/2008/08/mercenaries-for-hire.html
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=3413e279-9259-432f-8d09-e4f21119e650
http://www.alternet.org/story/96945/
http://phoenixpreacher.com/cms/?p=3307
http://www.strangreport.com/2008/08/emperor-has-no-clothes.html
http://fireinmybones.com/index.php?col=081308%7ELife+After+Lakeland%3A+Sorting+Out+the+Confusion
http://christian-witness.org/docs/thejudgmentwasset.doc
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/20/john-arnott-on-todd-bentley-divorce-excessive-drinking/
http://brianmpei.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/what%E2%80%99s-been-happening-with-lakeland-and-todd-b-while-i%E2%80%99ve-been-away/
http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2008/09/12/prominent-evangelical-anoints-sarah-palin-as-biblical-prophet.aspx
http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2008/07/12/canadian-todd-bentley-leaves-from-lakeland-revival-after-expose/
This tactic almost seems like a strawman argument that controlling pastors erect to keep people from noticing that the very suffering they attribute to people who have left their churches is happening equally often within their churches. If they say that those who are suffering within the church are weak in faith or something of the sort, I would immediately retort that those who had been most faithful at the church I left were the ones who suffered the greatest. The wise people in the congregation were the ones who saw the abuse and decided to leave quickly.
“When you discover that it’s NOT necessarily true that you’ll always be victorious in precisely the way you declare victory…when you discover that miraculous healing is NOT necessarily “always God’s will” for every situation…when you discover that the “hundredfold harvest” is essentially a myth . . . Well, these discoveries are like little deaths. At least they were for us. And as with any death, any loss, nothing will ever quite be the same again. There’s grief. There’s pain. There’s a keen sense of disappointment.”
Reading this post was like reading about my own experiences–I was so afraid to leave because I thought God would “curse” me. I didn’t fully understand why I felt the way I did after I left my former church. I became extremely depressed (more so than before) and was afraid to look for a new church. Then my depression worsened, and I was unable to find work . . . and I almost succombed to the misbelief that it HAD happened, that God had sent His judgment. I guess I really was grieving. I felt like I had given up on God, or that He had given up on me. The good thing is that I will never again tolerate manipulation like I once did. I’m so glad there are people like you out there, that use your own pain to help others through theirs. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
If you told one of these charismaniac pastors they were practicing cult mind control techniques, they’d go out of their minds denying it. But yet, that’s what they’re doing. People who were thinking about leaving my megachurch were labeled “church hoppers” and warned that they’d never find a perfect church. It’s what kept me there for 4+ years. When I left I discovered that I would NOT be zapped by lightning bolts and my life would NOT fall apart. They’ve lost more than 1,000 members this year due to a split; our Attorney General recently informed them they violated — numerous times — both their own bylaws and state laws regarding non-profit corporations. I just finished counseling for emotional and spiritual abuse due to teachings at this and other churches, and I’ve truly found my freedom in Christ. Too bad they’re still holding so many hostages!
“It’s fully possible that leaving Living Word Church DID lead to all sorts of problems for people. But NOT because they’d left Living Word’s protective “anointing.” Rather, people had problems after they left Living Word because of the natural implications of what it means to have been under the sway of a manipulative and abusive ministry!
Or another possibility is that the family was able to be deceptive in ho wthey were living because of their poor understanding and interpretation of the puplit messages. When they left they were out from under that deceptive stuff and the truth came out.
Or…
The teachings were so weak and based on false interpretation of the word that they were not strong enough to make it outside of the walls of the particular church. How many are still living in sin because the truth and the “whole council” of God is not taught?
Or…
As in a PDL (Purpose Driven Model) if you are not in unity with the direction”get rid of them, tell them they’ll be happier elsewhere so that there will be no thinking people in the masses.
AJS -
That’s a great observation. I remember that during our time at our Charismaniac church, we were pretty unaware of the problems of the people around us, especially their financial issues. Most of the members dressed well and presented themselves in a very “prosperous” fashion. That made it easier to accept what we heard from the pulpit, about Living Word’s supposed “protective covering”/anointing over one’s finances.
I remember the first inkling I had that appearances were deceiving. About a year after we’d become members, I happened to see this one couple who always sat near us. We knew them in a “Hi, how ya doin’?” sort of way, strictly from those times when we were commanded to “Turn to six people around you and slap ‘em a high-five!”
But for some reason, I was under the impression that they were rich. They certainly DRESSED rich. Among a veritable multitude of other wardrobe items, the guy owned a pair of what had to be extremely costly leather pants. (What guy wears leather pants to church, anyway, unless he’s extremely fashion-conscious…which requires money?) His wife had at least two different mink coats. They really presented quite the luxury appearance.
So you might be able to imagine my surprise when one Sunday I happened to go out a different door and saw them as they got into their car and drove off. I was shocked. Their car was at least a dozen years old and in such damaged condition that I doubt it would pass inspection at the DMV. The entire back window was broken out, patched with tattered plastic and duct tape. They’d BACKED IN to the parking space because apparently they had some transmission problems. You could smell burnt clutch as they lurched forward and practically peeled out of the church parking lot.
I was so puzzled by this huge disparity between their clothing and their vehicle that I actually kept an eye out for them in the parking lot from that point on. I simply had to see if that jalopy had just been a fluke – like maybe they’d only driven it because their REAL car was in the shop…or something.
Well, it turns out that that appeared to be their only car. And they did not seem to have the money to ever repair the rear window. It remained as it was, in all its plastic wrap-and-duct-tape glory, for at least another couple of years. They did get a “new” (different) car before we left, but it was only a slight step above their old one.
To me it became obvious that this particular couple could not possibly be “prosperous” in the way that Pastor Smith seemed to insinuate that all his people were. Otherwise, leather pants aside, they would drive a different vehicle…maybe not a luxury car – we’ve all heard the stories of the late Walmart billionaire Sam Walton and his beat-up pickup truck – but at least one that was SAFE!
This couple were not the only ones who presented a “prosperous” appearance in the church sanctuary, only to be ACTUALLY suffering from major financial crises. During our last six months or so at Living Word, in a process that certainly served to help the scales drop from our eyes over the deception and falseness of the whole “Prosperity Gospel” message, we happened to learn of several other families who were actually NOT AT ALL even financially solvent, despite being looked up to as pillars of the church, great examples of “overflow.”
SO MANY of Living Word’s folks were either in the midst of bankruptcy or on the verge of filing. It was actually quite shocking to us and, like I said, one of the key reasons we began to question the whole “sow a seed, reap a harvest” teaching.
Cindy R -
Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site.
I think one of the best things about the internet is that the “no talking” rule cannot be so easily enforced. So much of what goes on within Charismania is only enabled because of the “code of silence” that these control-freak pastors are able to impose upon their people.
Plus, because it’s kind of embarrassing to admit that one has been deceived by teachings like the “Prosperity Gospel,” it’s sometimes easier just to slink away and go to church somewhere else, without ever talking about one’s experiences.
I think the internet is changing that now. What cut through the fog for me was reading a few key statements from folks whose sites I happened to find online. One was Kevin Reeves’ website, “The Other Side of the River,” where he made the seemingly mild and obvious observation that we cannot use our personal feelings and experiences as the sole test of whether or not a teaching is true…because if we do, then we have no right to question people like the Mormons, with their “burning in the bosom” validations for the Book of Mormon.
That was a true “lightbulb” moment for me. The whole time that we kept seeing all the inconsistencies and downright WRONG things that the Smith family taught and did, I kept coming back to my own “feelings” about what happened in the church services. I loved those times of intense emotion, where I’d feel something of my own “burning in the bosom” while Pastor Smith preached, or when we’d all “fall out under the power” when he would lay hands on us. I kept thinking that all those experiences simply HAD to be God’s power…which therefore validated the Smiths…which meant that we needed to believe in them and stay in their church.
But when I read Reeves’ statement about the intellectual dishonesty of using our own experiences as validation for truth and then turning around and holding other “false” religions’ teachings up against the standard of the Bible (when we were unwilling to do the same for our own pet Charismaniac practices), I realized that I had to stop doing that about Living Word Church and the Smiths.
Also, another “lightbulb” observation was the one where some person – I can’t remember where I first read this – pointed out that OBVIOUSLY the “Prosperity Gospel” teachings about the “hundredfold harvest” were false, because otherwise, the ministers themselves would not need to pressure people to give to their own ministries but would instead just give all they personally had to OTHER ministries and wait for the “hundredfold” return on their “investment.” This one stunned me, actually. It was breathtaking in its simplicity and, again, its obviousness. But for some reason, I’d never been able to see this one on my own. I always accepted the way that the Smiths hammered away on sacrificial giving, never stopping to wonder why they’d so often plead with the congregation for special offerings because of particular needs or budget shortfalls. If their message was actually true – if we could actually give to a ministry and then “know” that we’d receive a hundredfold return on our gift – then logic would have it that they’d be constantly giving sacrificially to other ministries themselves. But they didn’t do that. Instead, they’d hit up their own congregation for money.
So it’s my theory that if there’s one thing that is finally going to debunk Charismania, it will be the internet. As more and more of us compare notes and cut through this stuff and see the garbage for what it is and hold up these men’s teachings to the light of Scripture, they won’t be so successful in their con.
I just spent the evening reading through your posts here. Our experiences were so much alike although yours was a much bigger church and we were in ours for almost 20 years. There is so much to say about all I have read but it is late. Just thanks. In reading your story I again am encouraged that I’m not crazy…and that is why some of us write this stuff – just to encourage the one person who is starting to question and about to have their world come crashing down.
Hi, Barb. Thanks for your comment, and welcome to the site. I got a chance to go over to your blog and read some of your own thoughts on what it’s like to leave an abusive church – your site is very good. Keep up the good work!
Spiritual Abuse… That’s what its called… What’s Barbara’s site?
I had come out of this and into a solid church and ended up working for lawyers in the WoF movement… A non profit… I saw sooooo much…. In the name of work with donor’s money… In the name of the Lord…
I know I have mentioned this before, but Justin Peters’ site helped me sooooooo much!
sounds like we could have come from the same church. The xpastor used to tell us that terrible things happen to families if they leave our church. THey would instill fear and manipulate.
The first month after leaving was terrible.. I really suffered badly regarding my spiritual condition thinking that i had done something aweful.. as if I had left God I kept thinking, am i wrong, am i deceived but Truth was being revealed every day.. a little more every day I got better and I am still getting better.
HOnestly I am doing better now that i am out. I am more bubbly and cheerful. I have my sense of humour back. there was such a secrecy of people leaving and I remember one time in a prayer session the xpastor saying, “let’s pray against the spirit of religion, there are people here that are critical.” Man do I see the truth Now.. they were right.. not the pastor!
Great site, first time commenter.
I only scanned the other comments so forgive me if this has already been said. But I think your analysis of why things fall apart for “some” folks isn’t quite on target and probably runs a little deeper.
My suspicion is these people who left the “Living Word” church had the same problems, before and during their attendance there. But because of guilt, manipulated, deception and illusions of grandeur denied these problems or didn’t deal with them in a real long lasting way. Because they churched in an environment that bred christian competitiveness they had to conform to certain behaviors that were actually probably beneficial to their problems, if only in a short term way. For example, behaving in an apparent humble manner. Good behavior, despite motive, but good none the less. It serves as only a mask or stall to addressing the problems. Once they leave they cast off these “expectations” of behavior and belief. In essence, they give up trying. See, I think, the “Living Word” church was a last ditch effort for them. And by extension, Jesus is that last ditch effort. So if that doesn’t work, which we have been told there, than nothing will.
Then there are also external forces.
Marriages are a process that will inevitably hit some hard times. Not necessarily because anyone is doing something wrong, but because marriage is the caldron of change. And sometimes we don’t realize how we need to change, or we are unable to address the need to change. But marriages will reach this point. We used to call it the seven year itch. Recent studies have found that its more in the 10th year marriages start having trouble. We all think its unique when it happens to us, but actually its just a pattern that happens in marriage. So therefore, many people that make up these “Word” churches are younger (below 50) families, it would stand to reason that you would see a marriage have trouble at some point. Its odd if you think about it. How many people have marriage problems while IN the church. A whole bunch. And we certainly don’t speak about the ones that are near failure, when they are faithful attenders of the church. Whats also amazing are all those marriages that do succeed, even when the couple don’t know Jesus and never attend church. I wonder how that happens?
I have seen people that have been the faithful naive little sheep in the church. Yet because they are odd, don’t have a high paying job, struggling with inner issues, nobody at the “Living Word” church REALLY wants to get close to them. They are awkward, say funky things sometime, emotionally draining, want us to always pray for that same old problem in their life, etc., etc. The “Living Word” models don’t want to spend much time with them. They don’t have power, money and fame. Just the opposite. So when these people leave, the inevitable happens, they get hit with a layoff, can’t pay their bills, that medical issue raises its ugly head. They struggle massively. Yet what is the response by the “Living Word” superstars? SS1: “Hey where’s so and so?” SS2 “Oh they left the church.” SS1: “Why?” SS2: “You know, they said they didn’t feel like they didn’t fit in, blah, blah blah.” said looking down their nose. SS2: “Mmmm-hmmm” eyes role. SS1: “Well we’ll pray for them” Says the might spiritual giant. Heck, why don’t you go see them! Go anonymously pay their bills! The fact is the church is made of struggling people. Haven’t we said we are the only army that kills our wounded?
And finally, if at all possible, the enemy would like to make an example of those that “Leave the folk and the care of the Shepard.” Those few are the ones we hear about. We rarely if ever hear about the families that leave and don’t struggle. We only hear about them through close mutual contacts. They never get publicized.
Anyways, keep up the work. See you on the other side some day.
Okay, I read some comments. Probably wiser to do this than running my mouth first.
GettingThere, CIndy R and TLC, much love to you. I’m there.
Charismania comment to Cindy R. Oh that “feelings’ thing. Ugh, took me years to get over that. I won’t say its conquered, but I really rejoice in being objective about circumstances. I love being able to see scripture, which I can take real action on, in the circumstance. When doing this I know I am walking the word.
Set Free. Makes one wonder, if these leavers were so bad, then where was the discernment when they arrived. Where were the prophetic words about not letting them into leadership?
I just scanned these posts. Makes me sad…. what has happened in some of these churches. We, too were bludgeoned with the “bad things will happen to you if you rebel against God’s authority (the pastor). Dire accounts (thinly veiled threats) were given about families falling apart after leaving a charismaniac church (having concerns, questions = touching God’s anointed.)
This is one thing I feel cleared to speak out about because it is evil, manipulation. A humble servant of God will not be afraid of questions. I know there are complainers who want to control everything, but I don’t think that’s what we are talking about here.
After my husband and I left our charismaniac church (I think ours was mild compared to Living Word except on this issue) we were bombarded with the mental aspects of walking out of all the stuff we had ingested. We had those thinly veiled threats whispering in our ears… and you know what? It was stressful. It was like waking up out of a strange dream. We realized that actually, it would be easy for a marriage to suffer in such a process. Maybe those families fell apart due to the stress and isolation and misplaced guilt piled on them from false shepherds.
This is not something I have seen discussed, and I want to warn those leaving charismania that they may encounter this, and to encourage them to maintain good communication and pray with their spouse.
Ted Haggard said recently that it only took him a few hours with a counselor to get free from the bondage that led him into drug abuse and homosexuality but that it will take him a lifetime to get over the response from the church community. I personally believe that the church responded appropriately for the word says to give one over to satan for a season lest he loses his soul…however, there is a parallel here (with what Ted Haggard said) to what we (ex-woF) are going through. I have been in counseling for about 4 months to deal with the sins from my past, and I am almost done with counseling and almost completely healed from my past, however, I have been out of WoF for almost a year and a half and still have anger and bondage in certain areas. Does it ever truly get better?? Will we ever get over it?