No condemnation – and no names named. Aside from nationally known “celebrity televangelists” and attached links, all names are pseudonyms. We’re here to work through the problems that come from being in “Charismania” – and what it’s like to leave.
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Charismania 
Hello,
Just ran across your site as I was doing some research for a short article about getting out of the “prosperity” game. It’s actually titled “12 Steps to Recovery from Prosperity Preachers”. I think it’s great that you have addressed some of the problems we see across many churches in America right now. Good info and I appreciate your dedication.
I might throw out an idea that could provoke thought for you and your readers. It could be something that you are ready to at least consider. The idea of the modern day church or institutional church has evolved over the past 1900 years. The early Church or true Body of Christ had no such structure and the gifts spoken of in Ephesians are roles and not offices. I would propose that the modern pastor is nothing more than a businessman leading a Christian business. He has a board and has certain financial goals he must meet.
God never intended for one man to lead a group of believers with sole responsibility for the direction of that body. In fact, Jesus was very specific about the structure among believers even before he was crucified. Read Matthew 23: 1-12 and Matthew 20: 20-28. Sound familiar? How many modern pastors view themselves as servants to the people in their congregations?
Anyway, there’s some great articles along these lines at a site called (http://truthforfree.com). These guys really have some insight into where we’ve come from and where we’ve ended up with “churcianity”. Might be worth taking a look. God Bless and keep up the great blogging.
Scott
Thanks, Scott, for the encouragement.
You probably are NOT one of the individuals who believes that each and every institutionalized church needs to go away…but in case anyone here is reading this and might think that WE are like that, I want to clarify something.
When you consider all the missteps the Church (both the “church invisible” and the church as organized institutions) has made over the past 2,000 years, it can be tempting to think that it’s all just a mess and we need to start over.
But it is our belief that that is a huge error in thinking.
Would Christ really have left His church to flounder, when Jesus Himself said, “I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against her”?
As a matter of fact, the above thought is one of the catalysts that got me thinking “Charismania” was not all it was cracked up to be. Charismaniacs spend a lot of time “dissing” other churches, talking about how traditional churches are dry, dull, and dead. After I left one of those more traditional churches and became part of Charismania, I was right there with them, practically mocking everything that wasn’t “fresh,” “alive,” or officially “Spirit-filled.”
Then one day, I was poking around, reading online somewhere, and someone was writing about God’s sovereignty and how God has already said that Christ and His church will ultimately prevail. That means that God has had a hand in the development of what we commonly view as “church.”
It makes no sense to think that God would allow millions of Christians throughout history to proclaim the truth of the Gospel and yet somehow make this HUGE error in how they banded together and organized themselves.
So we hold to the idea that, while the “Prosperity Gospel” and thousands of other lies have crept into the church and need to be routed out, God is still in control and is still working out His purposes for His bride…and He is doing so through the many Gospel-proclaiming yet imperfect institutions that we think of as “churches.”
We believe it is vital to become a part of a church. Leaving Charismania does NOT mean one rejects church altogether.
I think Scott makes some good points and you may think some of us are too radical in our accessment of the true church. I have seen all of the abuses you have written about and more in my journey thru the church and have come to the conclusion that money is at the root of all of them. I would have a hard time convincing you that your local hamburger joint has your best interest in mind and likewise your local hired preacher. Until you have totally removed money from your church that spirit will be present with all it’s hypocisy.
We’ll have to agree to disagree.
More importantly, the Bible would disagree with you. Paul talks in several places about how the “worker is worthy of his hire.” He says that HE didn’t take money from them, even though it was perfectly within his rights to do so, because he didn’t want them to have anything they could possibly say against him that would get in the way of the Gospel…but the overall sense of that passage was that it was acceptable for him to take a salary.
The problems come in with the faulty theology of the “Prosperity Gospel” – where not only is it acceptable to take a salary, it is also acceptable (indeed, it is a sign of God’s favor and blessing) to be RICH. The Bible points toward the desire to be rich – and not money itself – as the sin and the problem.
Like you, we’ve seen many churches in our lifetimes, and in every one of them, the pastor received a salary. Aside from the places where the “Prosperity Gospel” was preached, these churches functioned, for the most part, in a God-honoring and biblical fashion. None was perfect, of course, but the fact that the pastor received money for the work he did was NOT an issue that got in the way of the Gospel.
I too have seen good Ministers who only received gas money to serve at a small church, they were usually school teachers or some other professinal man. I was lead to Christ by the preaching of the word by men such as these. Most of the professinal ministry men I have met have bemoaned the situation they were in. If you read the whole verse about the workman and his wages (Luke10:7) you see that the wages were food and drink. The evidence in the new testament for approval of a salaried ministry is very thin while the evidence for a mission of sacrifice is strong. I don’t mean to condemn anyones motivation for whatever they do in the ministry and I have enjoyed your conversations about your previous Pastor.
Regarding Paula Paula Paula Paul (she uses her name over 30 times on her web page!!) White on LKL, wow, I am totally amazed that anyone in their right mind would succumb to this baloney! I have been reading up on her and others, and it appears that most of ‘their’ congregations in these mega-churches are lower income or minority based. I am wondering about the correlation between their congregation statistics and the statistics of those playing lotteries…they are both ‘get rich quick’ schemes that play on the needy-ness of lower income populations. I now understand that Paula Paula Paula is franchising her ‘ministry’ in San Antonio with an already established (minority-based) church. I have never liked the IRS’s mission, but hope they and the Senate look into these non-profits (hee hee hee!)! If folks want to give their hard-earned $ to these con-persons, so be it, but at least they should have to pay taxes…Avon saleswomen do and so do other similar get-rich quick organizations. That would hit them where they hurt..their pocket books..because they are not used to having to pay their fair share..asta.
Another wounded worker on the journey, here.
As I read Dave’s reply about Paula White, a statistic came to my memory. I recently listened to a radio program on NPR about Pay Day Loan and Title Loan businesses. The person who was being interviewed had created a map displaying where all of these businesses were located in America. The majority of them were located in low-income, minority-based communities in the South. The very same geographical target area of Paula White’s ministry and others like her.
I’m from Birmingham, Alabama, and I’ve seen the affects of businessmen using low-income minorities to build their empires. Not just pastors, but the CEO of HealthSouth, Richard Scrushy. I’ve personally seen Mr. Scrushy show up at Christian events after the downfall of Health South. He began a campaign among low-income minority communities in the area where his jury would be pulled from for his trials.
I’m starting see that some of these Christian leaders are cut from the same cloth as people like Scrushy, and the loan sharks that run Pay Day loan companies. Those that need the most help and hope are preyed upon.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful to see our churches, in all denominations, drop their building funds and replace them with giving funds. What if we spent more on community outreach than we did on music equipment and chairs?
Alas, it’s not just the Christian leaders that are to blame. Many Christians giving to these organizations do not want their money spent on the poor. In my experience, most of them want to see it spent on the building.
I would point to you one person in Charismania World that I do admire – Heidi Baker. There is a person that goes to the lowest rung on the economic ladder and just gives and gives and gives and gives and never stops giving. Gives me hope that God can turn the Charismatic Christian world around.
Hello,
I thought you might be interested in my post concerning Todd Bentley’s confusion about the “anointing”. It is an audio post that is sadly revealing.
http://blog.thewaycf.com/2008/06/audio-is-bentley-confused-in-error-or.html
In Christ,
Jon Sharp
Thanks, Jon!
I came across your page and I would like to suggest you view http://www.petervandever.com and search revival. I am someone who believes in REAL revival yet has some real issues with Lakeland.
Hi,
I followed a link on another blog and found you. How refreshing. I left charismania many years ago now. It has been, and still is a lonely road. People don’t trust you on both sides of the divide. We now have our own fellowship. The Bible is the foundation of our doctrine. We teach people to read and weigh everything. We encourage questions during and after the sermon and we learn together. We are a minority, but we are determined to equip those God has given us with the tools to survive in these Last days.
We pray He will find us faithful.
God bless you
Eve
I have some very real concerns, as a pastor, about what is happening at Lakeland.
To your readers: Don’t ever let anyone tell you that questioning is synomymous with quenching the Spirit or that any attempt to discern and judge the prophetic voice is despising prophesying (1 Thess 5:19-21).
I think many believers, Charismatics included, have forgotten the biblical admonition (and this is real and recognized apostolic teaching, from a real Apostle of Jesus Christ):
“Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.”
Pastor D. Rodriguez
Danny good to hear from you, great post too. You will do the church a great favour with this kind of advice.
God bless
Pete
Eve good to meet you here, have shared a similar experience and I think we have this in common with 1000s in the body of Christ who have had to leave the churchs and seek solace in Scripture alone. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth, in Christ, where ever we fellowship. Where ever 2 or 3 are gathered, Christ is there.
Pete
hey i wound up here while looking at the lakeland garbage. so God is even now giving them over to the strong delusion. pretty scary.
if people just taught/read the bible they could trust Jesus to KEEP THEM FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION Rev 3:9) that is on it’s way rapidly.
they don’t know what Jesus has said is to come. How can they overcome and hold to His Word if they never get around to reading it?
Amos 8 tells us that in the last days God is also sending a famine, not for bread, but for hearing the words of The Lord! of course, if they had read that, they would know it was coming..
that delusion we see out there in Lakeland and elsewhere is just a sample of what’s coming when the ol’ dragon sets up shop on Mt Zion….(2 Thess 2)
anyways, this is one of those examples of beautiful and important prophecy. it is set forth FOR US TODAY.
here’s the Song of Moses in Revelation 15….the overcomers are singing it on their way to Jesus, at the pouring out of the wrath (i.e.; SORRY PRETRIBBERS! the saints are indeed going through the tribulation….here’s proof http://www.velocity.net/~edju/SaintsWrath.htm):
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King James Bible
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: 6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
and here is the Song of Moses that the overcomers are singing :
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24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. 27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?
(Moses begins to describe the last days, our days)
28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. 29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.
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King James Bible
1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
7 Remember the days of old, consider the years of many generations: ask thy father, and he will show thee; thy elders, and they will tell thee.
8 When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.
9 For the LORD’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.
10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.
11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.
13 He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock;
14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
it is very clear that in the latter days His people will sacrifice unto devils. this warning is not only for the remnant of Israel, but FOR ALL WHO CLAIM THEY KNOW GOD,
the message again and again is warnings about following other gods. in the final days, of course, the “other god” will be the son of perdition.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
this is the apostasy Paul warned of.
we see that the reward for following other gods particular in the final days will be strong delusion sent by God Almighty as judgement. Paul says they are damned, and do not recover (2 Thess 2). looks like that process has begun.
in Hebrews 6 are more warnings….very scary ones: if anyone who has been washed by The Lord and tasted of the heavenly gifts, has known the Holy Spirit, if they fall away at the end in the apostasy, THERE WILL BE NO MORE REPENTENCE FOR THEM seeing they crucify Jesus afresh. yes, this is written to the Hebrews and is a warning about falling back into Judaism…..but it applies to us today, since those who say they are jews and are not but do lie and are a synagogue of satan (Rev 2:9 Rev 3:9) are already pushing their Talmudic satanic Noahide Laws:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/96347
http://watch.pair.com/law.html
IS ANYONE ANYWHERE TELLING THE PEOPLE THIS?
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
their rock is the King of Tyre, son of perdition, antichrist, satan. many who now claim Christ will all follow the synagogue of satan into the new religion, and int damnation.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.
(pretty serious isn’t it?) is anyone warning the people? or are they getting drunk in the spirit and speaking gibberish.
are they sacrificing to devils (paying money to go to these demonic events and doing it in the name of Jesus? chanting and calling down “angels”?)
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun. 45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel
people will say, “that’s the Old Testament!….but when Jesus had John write it in Revelation, HE MEANT IT FOR TODAY. the overcomers are singing the song of Moses.
sigh.
folks fortunate enough to have been delivered out of this mess really need to get aggressive and stop the mouths of these devils and blasphemers. Go back out into the ditches and byways and warn people away from this horrible judgment of God while there is still time.
Jesus made it clear that this kind (of demon/bentley’s) only comes out with prayer and fasting…..
Bless you all and let us stand together
Wow brother Paulnsilas! I’m wondering if you had to type all that in. I guess not, but you raise the question that is a good one: what if this stuff is really demonic? The Apostle Paul speaks of “doctrines taught by devils” and “perils of false brethren.” It is highly possible. The Lord himself gave much warning against false prophets. “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but even expose them,” is a good scripture to apply in these cases.
If there is a tribulation, I want to be there to experience Christ’s saving power in the midst of the greatest evil. What soldier wants to miss the great battle? Is He not able to keep us from falling?
Scott,
I just ran across your blog and I am glad to see yet another ex-charismaniac free from the cultic bondage of sensational side-show garbage called charismatic. What I really wanted you to know I’ve started a blog (I mean just started) that has the name of ex-charismania. I didn’t know you had one with the name you had and if you want me to change the name I will. The blog I started was to give all who have left the bizzare world of charismania and those wanting to leave a place to tell their story and ask questions (which is frowned on and attacked in charismania). look at my just started blog and give me your honest opinion.
Thanks,
Jeff Ray
Hello just come across your blog and was v impressed. I am a UK resident and yes we have much of this here too – its very deceptive especially if you are a young believer keen to please the Lord – I think at these times (and I note you were “novices” of a kind in that you were newcomers to “Living Word” and so in a way “beginners” or “new born” in one way) BUT I am sure that through pain and heart searching – as well Bible searching and the guidance of the Spirit, people can come through this. (many examples here) One sadness I have is that many may leave their faith walk because of it however.
I had to leave both charismania (about 12 years ago) and its (perhaps) opposite extreme – rigid exclusivism (ie “one true churchism”) – about 8 years ago. So ften we have the problem of swapping one “trap” for another, although this doesnt seem to have happened to you!! Your comments are wonderfully balanced and not harsh. I found various books (as well as people) tremendously helpful almost put there by God, perhaps – eg “Twisted Scriptures” by Mary Alice Chrnalogar and “Health & Wealth” by Andrew Brandon (not easily found) – which was an early UK critique (1986) – there are plenty more now. I agonised about tithing when financial commitments became oppressive but oddly enough it was crises which proved the “theology” wrong more so than bible study really. False theology cant stand crises whether personal or group / family ones – the book of Job (which prosperity preachers detest and wrest!) shows us this. Job’s God is larger post crisis than pre-crisis.
You’re doing some great work and it was a pleasure reading what I read tonight – I think I’ll call again !!
John Tate Liverpool UK
Hi Everyone,
I thought that you might be interested in my new book.
A number of related issues are discussed. You may have seen a post about this doctoral research on Set Free and other sites.
I wanted to inform you that my book: ‘Spiritual Abuse Recovery: Dynamic Research on Finding a Place of Wholeness’ has been published. This book has immediate appeal for those wounded in the church as well as for interested church leaders.
Would you be able to assist me in making this information known?
People can purchase a copy of the book by contacting me at: info@churchexiters.com.
I have book information on my website: http://www.churchexiters.com.
Here are a few samples of what others have posted.
Weary Pilgrim http://thewearypilgrim.typepad.com/the_weary_pilgrim/2009/12/index.html
Futurist Guy
http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/spiritual-abuse-recovery-book-by-dr-barb-orlowski-published/
Prodigal Kiwis
http://prodigal.typepad.com/prodigal_kiwi/2010/01/spiritual-abuse-recovery-amongst-church-leavers.html
Let me know if you have any questions.
Dr. Barb Orlowski
Hi, I’ve read some of the posts on this blog and very much appreciate them! I’m a soft cessationist who doesn’t want to put God in a box but is very skeptical of tongues, visions, and other signs and has yet to see them used biblically.
I was wondering, from your understanding of Scripture, how does God “call” believers to tasks and decisions? I believe God has an individual plan for His children but that “will” is not revealed, to allow us to walk by faith and take responsibility to make wise decisions. From my understanding, believers make wise decisions from spiritual maturity based on the Word, godly counsel, and the leading of the HS, which is based on the Word.
Insight?
Thank you and God bless!
Wow, I stumbled upon this site. What a great find. You speak the truth in many ways, glad to see others out there talking like we do. Check out our site if you have time, and keep preaching the truth.
The Reformer
http://www.citybusinesschurch.org/blog
God still does miracles today. He did an amazing miracle in my life.